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  #441  
Old 04.08.2010, 08:40
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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What it bothers me is those hatefull comments about the parents doing it for what they believe is the best interest for their son. To ridiculised them, their beliefs, culture and tradition is never going to make it change. By this attitude, you push people to stick more in what they believe.
I am sorry but it is not hatefull to question some prehestoric customs.
  #442  
Old 04.08.2010, 09:04
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I had a friend who had to be circumsised when he was 22, due to an infection. He says it is the worst thing to go through and wishes his parents had had it done to him when he was a baby.
But would he wish that if he had never gotten an infection down there? He only says that because he had to go through it at 22 but if he had never gotten sick down there, he would be glad he never got circumcised. Some grow up and wish they had never been cut, and it's easy for those who do end up having to get it done for some reason to wish it had been done as a baby, but they are only saying that because they hate going through the experience now.
  #443  
Old 05.08.2010, 15:44
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Gastro Gnome, you seem a bit hung up on the HIV thing.

I re-iterate that I am not an advocate of circumcision. However, unlike some here, I don't think it is as bad as the "anti" brigade would have you believe. That said, I would, as I believe you to do, rather facts used in a discussion are correct.

With this in mind, I posted information about there being medical benefits to circumcision because someone had said there were no medical benefits. It went against what I thought I knew, and after a short bit of research it pulled up information to show that there are medical benefits, of which only two were related to HIV.

The fact that there is also debate and discussion amongst the medical community about HIV and circumcision, is just that, a fact. Whether you agree with it or not is neither here nor there. What it means is that people are discussing the importance of the data and its relevance, suggesting that the jury is still out, rather than the decision as having been made as the "anti" lobby here would have you believe.

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HIV prevention is not something that should be messed with.


Absolutely. One shouldn't rely only on circumcision at all, if indeed, ever.

However, condom use and abstinence aren't exactly working 100% are they?

And I would add, that I would rather rely on circumcision than the belief that HIV can be cured by drinking coke or sleeping with virgins.*

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It's a bit like saying when you're washing your car as well as using a hose you should also use a water pistol. It's ridiculous. And, of course, the risk is that some people will conclude they can get away with only using the water pistol.


To use your analogy, imagine if the hose pipe had a hole in it and wasn't working properly. You'd be glad you brought your water pistol along.

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I suspect the background to some of these studies is a Catholic 'no condom' agenda. Though, of course, the ideal Catholic answer to HIV, which is abstinence, would make circumcision redundant too.


Never mind that circumcision is not related to Catholicism and, if anything, you would expect them to have a study showing that condom use increased the risk of HIV...

...and that most of the anti-snip folk - on here anyway - come across mainly as anti-religion zealots.

*Source: Note Quite World's End: A Traveller's Tales, John Simpson
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  #444  
Old 05.08.2010, 15:53
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Re:Circumcision: right or wrong?

browsing wiki, i learned that it not only lowers the risk of hiv, but uti's and many others. I'm not trying to convince anyone to circumcise on this basis alone, just adding in its not half as horrible as its made out to be.
  #445  
Old 05.08.2010, 16:10
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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browsing wiki, i learned that it not only lowers the risk of hiv, but uti's and many others. I'm not trying to convince anyone to circumcise on this basis alone, just adding in its not half as horrible as its made out to be.
You mean like the information posted here earlier?


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That's interesting, 'cos there is evidence of the benefits of having Jonny chopped:
  • 10- to 20-fold protective benefit of newborn circumcision against severe urinary tract infections (UTIs) in the first year of life
  • preventing transmission of HIV
  • prevention of infant balanoposthitis and phimosis
  • prevention of HIV acquisition
  • reduction of penile cancer incidcen
  • reduction of penile dermatoses
  • chlamydia infection is 3 times more common in female partners of uncircumcised men than in female partners of circumcised men
PEDIATRICS Vol. 118 No. 1 July 2006, pp. 385-387.

Now, I'm no fan of having the chop, but I accept that there are medically justified reasons for it. I therefore don't agree with your view that the medical consensus is that it is a bad thing, as there is evidence that it has benefits - see above.
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Medically and hygienically? I believe its right, loads of published studies show the benefits.

Just to mention a few ( I have a lot more references that I can send upon request).

Fink AJ. Newborn circumcision: a long-term strategy for AIDS prevention. J Roy Soc Med 1990; 83: 673

Ginsburg CM, McCracken GH. Urinary tract infections in young children. Pediatrics 1982; 69: 409-12

Jessamine PG, et al. Human immunodeficiency virus, genital ulcers and the male forskin: synergism in HIV-1 transmission. Scand J Infect Dis 1990 (suppl 69): 181-6

Kochen M, McCurdy S. Circumcision and risk of cancer of the penis. A life-table analysis. Am J Dis Child 1980; 134: 484-6

Spach DH, et al. Lack of circumcision increases the risk of urinary tract infections in young men. J Am Med Assoc 1992; 267: 679-81

Taylor PK, Rodin P. Herpes genitalis and circumcision. Br J Ven Dis 1975; 51: 274-7
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  #446  
Old 05.08.2010, 16:11
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Gastro Gnome, you seem a bit hung up on the HIV thing.
I'm merely replying to other's references to it. I believe that positing circumcision as a way of reducing the HIV infection rate is dangerous and likely to mislead.

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With this in mind, I posted information about there being medical benefits to circumcision because someone had said there were no medical benefits. It went against what I thought I knew, and after a short bit of research it pulled up information to show that there are medical benefits, of which only two were related to HIV.
I was mainly replying to Angela 74's post, which merely referred to a US paper talking about circumcision.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that it's a fact that circumcision has some health benefits. That's rather different from assessing the overall public health impact.

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The fact that there is also debate and discussion amongst the medical community about HIV and circumcision, is just that, a fact. Whether you agree with it or not is neither here nor there. What it means is that people are discussing the importance of the data and its relevance, suggesting that the jury is still out, rather than the decision as having been made as the "anti" lobby here would have you believe.
There are all kinds of discussions going on in the medical community, including about nonsense like homeopathy. Just because a matter's under discussion, even if certain health benefits have been established, that still doesn't mean it's a good idea overall.


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However, condom use and abstinence aren't exactly working 100% are they?

And I would add, that I would rather rely on circumcision than the belief that HIV can be cured by drinking coke or sleeping with virgins.*
Of course. But the answer is to promote condom use (or abstinence) rather than circumcision. People shouldn't be lead to believe that this offers protection - it's a misleading message. Public health messages in this area need to be clear and unequivocal.

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To use your analogy, imagine if the hose pipe had a hole in it and wasn't working properly. You'd be glad you brought your water pistol along.
Good luck trying to wash your car with a water pistol.

A better analogy is probably trying to go out in winter naked but for a scarf.

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Never mind that circumcision is not related to Catholicism and, if anything, you would expect them to have a study showing that condom use increased the risk of HIV...
I think that if you're religiously opposed to condoms you might support other anti-HIV efforts. This is not overly conspiratorial. If I can be bothered I'll try and come up with some evidence for exactly this kind of thing occurring.

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...and that most of the anti-snip folk - on here anyway - come across mainly as anti-religion zealots.
I'm not particularly anti-religious, but I think it's right to criticise individual practises. I don't think male circumcision is particularly problematic, especially compared to the Catholic injunction against prophylaxis.
  #447  
Old 05.08.2010, 16:14
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Re:Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Welcome to the party...
thank you
  #448  
Old 05.08.2010, 16:18
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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There are all kinds of discussions going on in the medical community, including about nonsense like homeopathy.
Really? In the (real) medical community?

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Just because a matter's under discussion, even if certain health benefits have been established, that still doesn't mean it's a good idea overall.
Agree, but my point was and remains that there is real evidence and the jury is still out. What you do with it (the evidence) is another matter/discussion.

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I think that if you're religiously opposed to condoms you might support other anti-HIV efforts. This is not overly conspiratorial. If I can be bothered I'll try and come up with some evidence for exactly this kind of thing occurring.
I'll give you an example to save you the bother: the religious (who else) nut jobs who support war in the Middle East in the hope of bringing Armageddon closer.
  #449  
Old 05.08.2010, 16:20
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Agree, but my point was and remains that there is real evidence and the jury is still out.
Look . . . even if circumcision stopped 50% of infection I'd still be saying it was dangerous to promote it as a method of prevention instead of condoms.

At what point does it become a good idea to spread the message that if you're circumcised you stand less chance of being infected?
  #450  
Old 05.08.2010, 16:21
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

I am very happy I abandoned this discussion
  #451  
Old 05.08.2010, 17:19
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Look . . . even if circumcision stopped 50% of infection I'd still be saying it was dangerous to promote it as a method of prevention instead of condoms.

At what point does it become a good idea to spread the message that if you're circumcised you stand less chance of being infected?
But if 50% of the circoncision did stop the infection, this will be a huge progress! With the usage of condom the % of risk to get infected will be much smaller!
  #452  
Old 05.08.2010, 17:22
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Wow, this thread is still alive and kicking?

I am not going to quote any scientific papers..Just instinctively feel that as a mom I would never allow my child to go through that pain and have a part of his body yanked out. Life is hard enough being a wee baby. I have a feeling one reduces the risks of infections keeping a good hygiene.
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Old 05.08.2010, 17:23
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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But if 50% of the circoncision did stop the infection, this will be a huge progress! With the usage of condom the % of risk to get infected will be much smaller!
It is likely to have an adverse public health effect as those circumcised will be less likely to use condoms.
  #454  
Old 05.08.2010, 17:25
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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It is likely to have an adverse public health effect as those circumcised will be less likely to use condoms.
Actually, I was wondering - since this seemed to be a standard practice in the US for a few decades - do they really have an overall lower number of STDs and HIV infections compared to other western countries..? Are there any absolute numbers out there?
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Old 05.08.2010, 17:30
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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It is likely to have an adverse public health effect as those circumcised will be less likely to use condoms.
In that case, those in charge of the campain should explain it properly. It is all about education! How come in UK the amount of people not using the condow still so great? It is a shame! So circoncision or not, it still a hell lot of work to do.
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Old 05.08.2010, 17:42
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

The discussion looks like the debate with the Church/Pope:
- Pope says that abstination is the only safe way to avoid HIV.
- Medical institutions say that condom is the safest solution to avoid HIV, despite the very small percentage of incidents that may happen with condoms.

So the Church refuses to see the fact that people are not into abstination and still condemns the usage of condoms.

If we make the parallel (abstination <--> condom) and (condom<---> circumcision) then we can see that we are in the same level of debate as the church vs. medical institution. The facts show that people very slowly adopt condoms, so let's reduce the risk by pushing circumcision while at the same time educate them about condom usage.
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Old 05.08.2010, 17:43
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

One other health reason not to circumsize is the effect on women with vaginal irritation such as vulvodynia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulvodynia

"Foreskin Restoration: For women in a committed relationship with a circumcised male partner, the painful symptoms of vulvodynia may be reduced or eliminated by the process of regrowing the foreskin by stretching the penile shaft skin over the glans. This is a process that takes many months to complete, though some benefit may be seen in the first few weeks of restoration. This option has the added benefit of improving the sexual experience for both the female and the male partner."

Cutting the genitals of babies is really a barbaric practice no matter how you slice it, whether for religion or to just fit in.

BTW, I know a Jewish couple in the US that decided not to have their son cut after doing their own research.
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Old 05.08.2010, 18:02
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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In that case, those in charge of the campain should explain it properly. It is all about education! How come in UK the amount of people not using the condow still so great? It is a shame! So circoncision or not, it still a hell lot of work to do.
Why do you keep calling it 'circoncision'?
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Old 05.08.2010, 18:04
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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In that case, those in charge of the campain should explain it properly. It is all about education!
I agree. But the first rule in public communication is not to send a mixed message. It should be simple and singular: Use a condom.

Apart from anything else, circumcision does absolutely nothing to reduce a woman's chance of being infected by a man.
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Old 05.08.2010, 18:06
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Why do you keep calling it 'circoncision'?
it's the french word for circumcision....Nil is from french speaking canada.
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