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Old 05.08.2010, 18:49
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I understand your point. What it bothers me is those hatefull comments about the parents doing it for what they believe is the best interest for their son. To ridiculised them, their beliefs, culture and tradition is never going to make it change. By this attitude, you push people to stick more in what they believe.
I think my section in an earlier post on ritual marking of a child answers this one, it is completely understandable that some groups may think it wards off demons or whatever, and it is arguable that these tribes should retain their customs, however barbaric, but in a first world society in the west people should maybe consider medical science takes precedence over voodoo.
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Old 05.08.2010, 21:07
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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The facts show that people very slowly adopt condoms, so let's reduce the risk by pushing circumcision while at the same time educate them about condom usage.
Well said!
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Old 05.08.2010, 21:10
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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One other health reason not to circumsize is the effect on women with vaginal irritation such as vulvodynia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulvodynia

"Foreskin Restoration: For women in a committed relationship with a circumcised male partner, the painful symptoms of vulvodynia may be reduced or eliminated by the process of regrowing the foreskin by stretching the penile shaft skin over the glans. This is a process that takes many months to complete, though some benefit may be seen in the first few weeks of restoration. This option has the added benefit of improving the sexual experience for both the female and the male partner."

.
Honestly this is full of rubbish about vulvodynia. I know this problem very well for being involve in some research we did in the UQAM of Montreal. We had to work with woman having this problem. The guy's penis has not much to do with the problem...
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Old 05.08.2010, 21:12
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Why do you keep calling it 'circoncision'?
Oups, probably because it is the french word and I mixed them...
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Old 05.08.2010, 21:42
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

OK. I've looked into this a bit more.

There are some interesting circumcision programmes being carried out in Africa, e.g. by PSI in Zimbabwe.

I think there are two features of this programme which make it justifiable:

- the high rate of HIV infection in the country already
- that the procedure is being carried out on consenting adults

I still don't think there's sufficient medical justification for infant circumcision in somewhere like the US.
  #466  
Old 05.08.2010, 21:58
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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- that the procedure is being carried out on consenting adults

I still don't think there's sufficient medical justification for infant circumcision in somewhere like the US.
But do you know younger you are, less pain you have and faster you heal?
  #467  
Old 05.08.2010, 22:00
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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But do you know younger you are, less pain you have and faster you heal?
The issue of consent is more important and it's still medically irrelevant somewhere like the US.
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Old 05.08.2010, 22:11
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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The issue of consent is more important and it's still medically irrelevant somewhere like the US.
about the consent... Until where and when we should always take this in? Baptisme? Choice of language? school?

You do what you think is the best for your kids. And that can be taking a decision without them having a word on it. If for parents circumcision (I wrote it well ) is an important topic and they want to carry on while the kid is a baby I think we should let it to them to decide it.

Like many agreed, it doesn't have much of an impact on the child and as long as a study doesn't come up with numbers telling how many guys would want their foreskin back because of physical problems, body image, etc. I still don't see the big deal out of it.

My parents didn't ask me want they pierced my ears when I was a baby. I don't remember and I never questioned that or even think about not having them this way.

Maybe for those both situation it is a North American view. Each culture their own way to live...
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Old 05.08.2010, 22:20
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I don't think circumcision without a medical indication is ever advisable,
but if you're going to have it done, then straight after birth is the worst
possible time.

a) you have to separate the foreskin from the glans (think of
removing your thumbnails only more painful). This also results in
adhesions, skin tags and skin bridges. If you wait a few years,
then the foreskin separates naturally.
b) it's smaller so more chance of a seriously botched job. It's very very
rare, but baby boys do occasionally die and suffer amputation because of
circumcision. (google "David Reimer" and read about his/her story if you
don't know what I'm talking about).
c) general anaesthetic is more dangerous for a newborn, so is never
used for circumcision which means it hurts more. Watch a video of
an operation if you don't know how much it hurts.
They scream their little heads off. Just because babies don't remember, it
doesn't mean it hasn't affected them. They have more problems
breastfeeding, and also show more reaction to injections years later.
d) newborns don't have much of an immune system, so they can die of
things that are harmless to adults or older children. A baby died
after circumcision in New York recently of the coldsore virus for
instance, and another got brain damage. Babies are more vulnerable
generally - a baby died 15 minutes after being circumcised in
London, UK about a year ago of apparent heart failure.
e) a newborn can't tell you if he actually wants to have the most
sensitive part of his penis removed or not. It's HIS body after all.

Medical reasons to be circumcised are very rare btw, but almost unheard
of in boys under ten.

If my son wants to be circumcised when he's 18, I'll pay for it, and help
him find the best surgeon in town, but until then, I'd rather leave him the
way he is.
Hi,

I was circumcised pretty much immediately after birth. not for religious reasons, but because my parents are both doctors and found it healthy. I have never had any issues. I could add more, but I will leave it there.
  #470  
Old 05.08.2010, 22:23
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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about the consent... Until where and when we should always take this in? Baptisme? Choice of language? school?
Well there's very little point doing it before the they start having sex. The age of consent would be a logical and uncontroversial starting point.

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Maybe for those both situation it is a North American view. Each culture their own way to live...
If it's cultural why are you making a medical justification?
  #471  
Old 05.08.2010, 22:30
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Actually, I was wondering - since this seemed to be a standard practice in the US for a few decades - do they really have an overall lower number of STDs and HIV infections compared to other western countries..? Are there any absolute numbers out there?
The US doesn't compare favourably with other industrialised nations with a 0.6% (compared to, e.g. the UK's 0.2%) prevalence rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...revalence_rate

I don't think you could draw any immediate conclusions about the effect of circumscision from that though.

It will be interesting to see what happens in Zimbabwe.
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Old 05.08.2010, 22:31
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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If it's cultural why are you making a medical justification?
I didn't. It wasn't me.
  #473  
Old 06.08.2010, 01:11
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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But do you know younger you are, less pain you have and faster you heal?
What is it you are actually proposing? Replacing a simple and 100% successful prevention of all Venereal Diseases which also facilitates family planning (i.e. the condom), with an invasive mass surgical treatment program mandatory for all males in sub-Saharan Africa, which has been observed to marginally decrease the chances of infection, in a few studies, and would cost billions.

The first is 100% effective very cheap and easily distributed, the second smacks of mass sterilisation, how are you going to council and provide aftercare for nearly a billion people, not to mention the surgical team required.

By indicating you have a risk free adaption that can prevent HIV would encourage people to take more sexual risks, it could even increase HIV prevalence in these areas.

Should we not be looking for the best, safest, and most implementable solution?

Why groan at this? Just tell me why?
  #474  
Old 06.08.2010, 04:56
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Look . . . even if circumcision stopped 50% of infection I'd still be saying it was dangerous to promote it as a method of prevention instead of condoms.

At what point does it become a good idea to spread the message that if you're circumcised you stand less chance of being infected?
Exactly! You'll have people saying they don't need a condom because they are circumcised.

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Wow, this thread is still alive and kicking?

I am not going to quote any scientific papers..Just instinctively feel that as a mom I would never allow my child to go through that pain and have a part of his body yanked out. Life is hard enough being a wee baby. I have a feeling one reduces the risks of infections keeping a good hygiene.
I totally agree! Just teach the kid good hygene and he should be okay.
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Old 06.08.2010, 08:56
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Circumcision is usually performed for religious purposes (muslim and jews)or medical purposes.

I was circumcised for health reasons at three years old. I have never bothered to find out the reason. Girls often asked if I was Jewish. I used to explain that I was circumcised because the girth of my knob was too wide and it was to prevent hurting females when having sex.

Any female will tell you that giving a BJ to someone with a circumcised willy is much more pleasant than uncircumcised.

I have read here that God would not have created man with a foreskin if it was better not to have one.
Perhaps one should ask ones self the reason that God created a woman with her pussy so close to her anal hole then?
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  #476  
Old 06.08.2010, 09:00
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Oh FFS, no one, no one has said that circumcision should replace condom use. Quite frankly, the pair of you (JlR and GG) are hung up on the HIV thing. Get over yourselves.

Why groan Jonny? Because of factual errors - again... - in your post.

Last edited by Carlos R; 06.08.2010 at 10:46. Reason: typo - damn those iphones
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Old 06.08.2010, 09:47
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I was circumcised pretty much immediately after birth. not for religious reasons, but because my parents are both doctors and found it healthy. I have never had any issues. I could add more, but I will leave it there.
Out of curiosity, did they find it healthy in a way related to being doctors? That is, do they have medical studies to back their decision? Or did they just fall for the "oh, it just seems like it is cleaner" mass hysteria that seems to continue in many parts of the US?

Beyond that, well, there is a difference between happening to not have an issue with and thinking that it is a one size fits all solution. I mean, which sort of mistake is harder to correct - circumcising somebody who grows up and wishes they were uncut, or the opposite?
  #478  
Old 06.08.2010, 10:13
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Any female will tell you that giving a BJ to someone with a circumcised willy is much more pleasant than uncircumcised.

message too short
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Old 06.08.2010, 10:18
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Oh FFS, no one, no one has said that circumcision should replave condom use. Quite frankly, the pair of you (JlR and GG) are hung up on the HIV thing. Get over yourselves.
Someone else introduced the HIV stuff, but when we question it we're the ones hung up on it?

Jeesh!
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Old 06.08.2010, 10:42
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Someone else introduced the HIV stuff, but when we question it we're the ones hung up on it?

Jeesh!
You keep banging the same drum that condoms are better than circumcision to prevent HIV transmission, and - AFAIK (I've not read each and every post) - most people agree with that and no one has disputed this.

In most disease prevention/public health programmes I've come across, there are several strategies used: primary and secondary. I fully agree that circumcision is a secondary strategy for avoiding HIV. But why the big objection to people wanting to have a back up of sorts for this and other diseases?

My initial objection, which remains, was that to say there is no medical evidence for the benefits of circumcision is, simply put, factually wrong.

I wrote that HIV was one of several medical conditions (and listed them) that benefited from circumcision. The thread isn't about HIV prevention, which is what the majority of the last few pages of posts have been about. Hence, I think you are hung up about it.
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