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Old 19.08.2011, 03:14
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I had a look at the wikipedia article on the prevalence of circumcision, and find the information rather intriguing: why is circumcision big in the United States, Canada and Australia, yet much rarer in the United Kingdom and New Zealand?

It's obviously a cultural matter - but how, exactly?

Unfortunately, the arguments I've heard include:
- to look like daddy
- to not be made fun of in the locker room for not being "different"
- to protect from diseases/infections
- because they didn't know they could say no or know any info about it.
- its just what's done.

When my son was born, we said no circumcision. After he was home, we kept getting billed for one and when we'd call and say we didn't get one, they were always shocked
  #642  
Old 19.08.2011, 03:38
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland: advice and info please

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Weeks, not years!

Tom

P.S. Most women I've known (and most of them French or Swiss) prefer circumsized.
I hate to break it to you but most women know that to get the best massaging the male ego, doesn't hurt and may even help. While we are on the subject you do know that the majority of women have faked orgasms- go on say " never with me!"
  #643  
Old 19.08.2011, 03:48
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Okay, sitting on devil's advocate side...

Are the two even the same? According to the things I've heard / read, female ablation means that it is virtually impossible for the majority of females to attain orgasm (which, as I've pointed out elsewhere, has been found to aid in procreation) while I can not recall anywhere that says that circumcised men do not enjoy sex at all, rather that it is possibly simply "less" enjoyable.

The two are not the same.
I don't know if this is true- the female orgasm is still a mystery- Which I find wonderful Not long ago everyone was banging on about the g-spot, men priding themselves in the G-Spot technique- now that is n question. SEx is in the brain- which is why both men and women can have wet dreams.



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Meanwhile, having known men in both states, my preference is to leave him uncut but that means a huge responsibility on the part of the parents to teach him to clean himself properly as he reaches an age to do so. I remember a particular little boy constantly messing about with his equipment and when I asked what the problem was, it was obvious that he'd not been taught.
Little boys and big boys are always messing about with it, whether they are washing it or not. In my time most girls grew up thinking they were ugly and scary, like snakes, whereas most of the boys considered them to be a fun piece of equipment.

I was just watching a BBC documentary about childhood,where the boys got caned for comparing size in the playground.
  #644  
Old 19.08.2011, 04:01
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

  #645  
Old 19.08.2011, 11:49
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Having grown up in a european culture where circumcision is NOT routinely done, I immediately of course have a cultural bias on the subject.

Now I have a son of my own, I find it an extremely emotive topic, and as I assume any parent does, I do my best to inform myself as much as possible on the various topics associated with babies, childhood and parenting to endeavour to make the decisions that are in my child's best interests. I personally couldn't imagine ever making such a unilateral decision to mutilate my child's perfect body, without his consent, for no real medical reason, subjecting him to such irreversible trauma and extreme pain as is often the case in 'routine' newborn circumcisions carried out in the western world (e.g. US) today.

I can only hope and plead that any parent even considering carrying out this practice on their child, nomatter how ingrained it is in their culture, no matter how much a father believes "it did me no harm" or the importance of "looking the same as Daddy", no matter how many times they have heard "it's more hygienic" or "prevents STDs" or numerous other common myths, has taken the time to fully inform themselves on the subject. Surely they owe that to their child before making such a big decision on their behalf?

Here is a starting point with a wealth of further, mostly fact and research based, resources for anyone wishing to inform themselves further. And here are some basic, easy-to-read statistics on the outcomes of infant circumcision.

To be honest, I don't care if this has already been done to death during this mammoth beast of a thread, or if I'm repeating something someone has already said 15 pages ago, or if I'm groaned into next week. If this plants the seed of doubt in one prospective parent's mind, or actually prompts one person to actually read and research further before reaching their decision, knowing the full consequences of their actions (and therefore hopefully resulting in a child remaining intact), it's worth it.
  #646  
Old 19.08.2011, 11:53
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

@jot

That link says it all. Thanks.
  #647  
Old 19.08.2011, 12:27
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland: advice and info please

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I love it when we're reduced to quoting from porn stars on the internet to answer medical and hygiene questions.

Maybe we can ask some ex. gladiators how they handle gerbil breeding or get some vultures' opinions on the latest vegetarian restaurant just opening in St. Gallen.....?
Hmm your post would make some sense if porn stars don't have to deal with a whole slew of medical,hygiene and sexual questions ,otherwise not so much.
  #648  
Old 19.08.2011, 12:35
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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How on earth is it acceptable to suggest that a penises in their natural state are ugly and unattractive? Do you think little boys don't pick up on this? Would we say the same to girls? Worse yet, would anyone dare suggest that we perform routine cosmetic surgery on girls in order to make their genitals more appealing to the opposite sex? What kind of people think this?

I'm floored that a woman can give birth to a little boy and think "he's great and all, except for that ugly bit of skin at the end of his penis!" and then proceed to put the poor child through a painful, irreversible procedure without ever giving a thought as to what the child might want when they grow old enough to decide on their own.

Edit - For what it's worth, I'm circumcised, and wish I wasn't.
Well done , awesome post - it's every person's right to a fully intact body - and to do with it what they please.
  #649  
Old 19.08.2011, 12:47
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Okay, sitting on devil's advocate side...

Are the two even the same? According to the things I've heard / read, female ablation means that it is virtually impossible for the majority of females to attain orgasm (which, as I've pointed out elsewhere, has been found to aid in procreation)
Here you go then - something which might change your opinion on that - written by an anti-FGM campaigner.http://www.lightfoot-klein.com/orgasm.html
  #650  
Old 06.09.2011, 22:57
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

As a result of scientific studies the American Academy of Pediatrics reversed its position from saying it was it not necessary to saying it reduces risk of HIV and a host of other STDs. The World Health Organization and Centers for Disease Control agree. When I consider the trend of anti-biotic resistant bugs around and the possibility and I can lessen the future possibility of catching/transmitting something to begin with I lean toward circumcision. I spoke with a PhD friend of mine in Public Health (working with STDS), and she did it for her boys.

Last edited by A2Z; 06.09.2011 at 23:32.
  #651  
Old 06.09.2011, 23:08
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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As a result of scientific studies the American Academy of Pediatrics reversed its position from saying it was it necessary to saying it reduces risk of HIV and a host of other STDs.
That is not true - the AAP has never said that it was neccessary :
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...rics;103/3/686
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Over the past several decades, the American Academy of Pediatrics has published several policy statements on neonatal circumcision of the male infant.1-3 Beginning in its 1971 manual, Standards and Recommendations of Hospital Care of Newborn Infants, and reiterated in the 1975 and 1983 revisions, the Academy concluded that there was no absolute medical indication for routine circumcision.
I wonder why you feel so strongly on the topic that you tell untruths.
  #652  
Old 07.09.2011, 15:03
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

I apologize to the community for my typo and for a bad citation.

I saw my typo and fixed it before the first person's personal attack posted. As for the bad citation, my mistake was an honest one after reading the article posted on Medscape: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/714553
"...January 4, 2010 — The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) policy on newborn male circumcision, initiated in 1999 and reaffirmed in 2005, states that data are insufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. However, recent results from 3 randomized trials showing that it prevents sexually transmitted infections suggest that it is time to revise this policy to fully reflect these benefits, according to a review published in the January 2010 issue of the Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine.

“During the past 4 years, substantial new data have been published on the health benefits of circumcision,” write Aaron A. R. Tobian, MD, from Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, Maryland, and colleagues. “While the historical evidence strongly suggests that male circumcision reduces urinary tract infections and penile inflammatory disorders in infants, we reviewed the more recent evidence with regard to effects on sexually transmitted infections (STIs) in adulthood.”
To evaluate the effect of circumcision on HIV prevention, the researchers analyzed 3 randomized controlled trials of more than 10,000 men from South Africa, Kenya, and Uganda.
The trials enrolled HIV-negative men to circumcision on enrollment or after 21 to 24 months, and all 3 trials demonstrated that male circumcision significantly decreased male heterosexual HIV acquisition by 53% to 60%, despite differences in age eligibility criteria, urban or rural settings, and surgical procedure.


Results Prompted New WHO/UNAIDS Recommendations
Because of this new evidence, the World Health Organization (WHO), together with the Joint United Nations Program on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS), recommended that male circumcision be provided as an important intervention to reduce heterosexually acquired HIV in men, the study authors report."
This topic attracts the same type of loud-mouth losers that continue to say vaccines cause Autism, that evolution is "just a theory", that global warming is a fake, that neutering dogs is "inhumane" and that Michelle Bachmann is smarter than Obama.

Two useful links:
1) http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1015820-overview

"...Routine neonatal circumcision has become a controversial issue in the past 2 decades as many of the previously accepted medical indications have come under considerable scrutiny. Because neonatal circumcision poses both potential benefits and risks and because the procedure is not necessary for a child's well-being, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) Task Force on Circumcision in its latest policy statement in 1999 affirms that "existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision."[1] As a consequence, parents should be appropriately counseled so that they can make an informed choice and decide whether a circumcision is in the best interest of their child. "

2) http://www.cdc.gov/getsmart/antibiot...ast-facts.html

"Antibiotic resistance has been called one of the world’s most pressing public health problems. The number of bacteria resistant to antibiotics has increased in the last decade."

Now, I am off to read about how I was mutilated by a scientific conspiracy to remove my appendix and wisdom teeth. Joking aside, I had an open mind on this topic before meeting the "opponents" of circumcision.
  #653  
Old 07.09.2011, 15:13
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I apologize to the community for my typo and for a bad citation.

................ yawn...........
And wearing condoms is much for effective for reducing HIV risk than circumcision (and for preventing unwanted pregnancy).

And, these studies were done in Africa where AIDs is rife.

Not exactly the U.S. is it?

There's a lot of malnutrition in Africa as well. And we all know how to sort that one out.

Are you suggesting that people in the U.S. eat (even) more??
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Old 07.09.2011, 15:14
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Now, I am off to read about how I was mutilated by a scientific conspiracy to remove my appendix and wisdom teeth. Joking aside, I had an open mind on this topic before meeting the "opponents" of circumcision.
Ach, your argument was almost making sense with links and quotes and everything until you plucked this daft comparison out of the air to end your post.

Do you really believe that an appendectomy or removal of wisdom teeth is mutilation?

The appendix is only removed when it endangers the life of the patient through blood poisoning and the wisdom tooth is only extracted when it is impacting (or shows through x-rays a future impaction) the surrounding teeth and compromising the jaw.

Now, can the same be said of a perfectly healthy penis with foreskin which will in the majority of cases not cause any medical problems?

Or, by your logic, should all newborns have their appendix removed at birth as a preventative measure?
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Old 07.09.2011, 15:25
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I apologize to the community for my typo and for a bad citation.

I saw my typo and fixed it before the first person's personal attack posted.
Wrong on every single count :

First of all my "attack" was not personal - I pointed out that you were just 100% wrong and showed you where YOUR information was incorrect.

Secondly one can see easily that my post was published in response to yours before (22:08) your "correction" was posted from the EDIT times above (22:32).

It seems that rather than address the point rationally you engage in online nonsense.

Finally what makes you think you have the right to decide to cut off a part of another person's body ? Surely by the time one's children are engaging in the possibility of catching an STD they are old enough to make their own decision as to which parts of their body they wish to hold onto or cut off.
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Old 07.09.2011, 15:26
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

The real understanding of what is mutilation
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Old 07.09.2011, 15:32
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

My reference to appendix and wisdom teeth was response to those that call circumcision mutilation. I can see where you might think "preventative appendectomy" is a continuation of my logic, but I do differentiate between invasive surgery (appendectomy) and an outpatient service. That said, is not uncommon to remove an appendix preventatively once a person is having surgery for something more urgent.
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Old 07.09.2011, 15:34
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Fine - talk about timestamps and how my earlier post was untruthful. Others are interested in understanding circumcision.
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Old 07.09.2011, 15:35
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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My reference to appendix and wisdom teeth was response to those that call circumcision mutilation. I can see where you might think "preventative appendectomy" is a continuation of my logic, but I do differentiate between invasive surgery (appendectomy) and an outpatient service. That said, is not uncommon to remove an appendix preventatively once a person is having surgery for something more urgent.

I had my appendix removed during another surgery years ago. At the time it seemed odd but they said they were sure I did not want to be cut open again should my appendix become a problem.
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Old 07.09.2011, 15:42
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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My reference to appendix and wisdom teeth was response to those that call circumcision mutilation. I can see where you might think "preventative appendectomy" is a continuation of my logic, but I do differentiate between invasive surgery (appendectomy) and an outpatient service. That said, is not uncommon to remove an appendix preventatively once a person is having surgery for something more urgent.
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I had my appendix removed during another surgery years ago. At the time it seemed odd but they said they were sure I did not want to be cut open again should my appendix become a problem.
Yes, I agree that this is done but it's hardly routine, is it? In the US it seems to be the norm to remove a newborn's foreskin for no apparent reason other than aesthetics / cultural reasons for those who aren't required to do it for religious reasons.

For all the research that says circumcision somehow prevents the spread of HIV there is plenty of research to say that this is extremely shaky.

It's each to his own - I haven't had my son circumcised because we have no religious or cultural pressures to do it, nor does he have an medical reason to do it.

As for spreading STDs, I think I would prefer to educate him not to sleep around without a proven barrier method of contraception rather than relying on some half-baked research that slicing off his foreskin will somehow prevent him contracting HIV.

But that's just us.
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Last edited by Sandgrounder; 07.09.2011 at 15:55.
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