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  #721  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:20
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Let me pose the question to you like this Nil.

Is female circumcision a good thing? In the west this would be cutting off the clitoral hood which would expose the clitoris to constant stimulation, thus over time decreasing sensitivity. Is this a good thing?

Is male circumcision a good thing? In the west this is cutting off the foreskin which exposes the glans to constant stimulation, thus over time decreasing sensitivity. Is this a good thing?

The african versions are just more babaric and have more stupid religeous crap attached to them. Does this really make them any different?
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  #722  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:29
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Strong words. Which, in substance is the true lie. As you and others can read, I immediately corrected my mistakes, neither of which invalidated the major point I was making. I don't have to defend other people's research to you - especially to you (that would be a waste of time). People reading can find out for themselves, like I did, what the real arguments are.

Before meeting you anti-circumcision types, my mind was genuinely open on the topic. As for your anti-science/morality based argument - you bend over backward to disregard what research demonstrates (its healthier to circumcise) and you (and your cohorts) and use highly judgmental language suggesting those that circumcise are less moral. As if the parents of non-circumcised boys, and eventually the boys themselves are/will be more promiscuous. In my life, the one thing I know is that those claiming morality superiority seldom are. I intend circumcise my boy and to teach him to not judge others, to treat others as himself, love and commit to those he has sex with and to say away from priests and evangelicals.

Mom always said, "don't argue publicly with crazy people". I've learned today that like the moon landing, the holocaust, global warming, smoking-related cancer, vaccines/autism... you can't talk with anti-circumcision people about what is best for the child.

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Where's the anti-science or morality mentioned ?

It's abundantly clear that you've been caught lying on this thread - does this mean that the foundation of all pro-circumcision argument is lies ?
  #723  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:31
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Let me pose the question to you like this Nil.

Is female circumcision a good thing? In the west this would be cutting off the clitoral hood which would expose the clitoris to constant stimulation, thus over time decreasing sensitivity. Is this a good thing?

Is male circumcision a good thing? In the west this is cutting off the foreskin which exposes the glans to constant stimulation, thus over time decreasing sensitivity. Is this a good thing?

The african versions are just more babaric and have more stupid religeous crap attached to them. Does this really make them any different?
I'll be completely honest with you Colin. My husband and my brothers (2) have it done when they were young. My husband had it done when he was 4 for religious reasons which he remember well. My brothers had it done after the birth in the hospital because it was the norm back then.

I also have a friend who had it done, for religious reason when he was 9.

2 of them remember very well the ceremony coming with it and the pain. While 2 have no souvenirs at all.

The 4 of them have no sexual problems. Yes, they may not have the same sensitivity but they say they can last longer and can enjoy sex as much.

I have no idea how different it is before the circumcision and after. So if a grown up man can tell us the difference between both, that would help us.

Now, if I didn't have my clitoral hood: I can't tell since I have it. Would it be worst without? I have no idea. I have to say it is enough sensitive to reach a painful point sometimes which isn't fun either. But I am certainly not going into those details here, right?
  #724  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:32
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Mom always said, "don't argue publicly with crazy people". I've learned today that like the moon landing, the holocaust, global warming, smoking-related cancer, vaccines/autism... you can't talk with anti-circumcision people about what is best for the child.
Hmm, that's quite insulting.
  #725  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:35
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Hmm, that's quite insulting.
Agreed! Which is why I said to keep personal attack out of the debate.
  #726  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:41
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Strong words. Which, in substance is the true lie. As you and others can read, I immediately corrected my mistakes, neither of which invalidated the major point I was making. I don't have to defend other people's research to you - especially to you (that would be a waste of time). People reading can find out for themselves, like I did, what the real arguments are.
What you didn't mention, is that after the research, in one of those African countries, they were discussing, in government, whether to implement a mass-circumcision strategy.

It was decided that, to set a good example, the male members of the nation's government should all get circumcised - to set a good example.

Amazingly, they all declined - apart from one.

So, in my case, if my sons want to get it done - that's fine -they can do it of their own free-will when they are no longer my responsibility.

The question is -how many of them (I've got three), will chose to get circumcised?

You're giving your future son(s) no choice.
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Old 07.09.2011, 17:41
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Mom always said, "don't argue publicly with crazy people". I've learned today that like the moon landing, the holocaust, global warming, smoking-related cancer, vaccines/autism... you can't talk with anti-circumcision people about what is best for the child.
So if you take out the factors of religion, cultural differences and any medical reason there is no physical benefit to circumcising anyone, male or female.

They already debunked the hygiene myth and old man Kellogg was an advocate of doing it to stop young boys masturbating but, from a purely physiological point of view, there is no reason to do it.

That's probably what most of us "anti-circumcision people" base it on...
  #728  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:42
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

The gist of the anti-circumcision point of view is deeply insulting to the debate - At its base is a "holier than thou" attitude. Fine, we got it - circumcision leads to promiscuity, HIV promotion and married men sleeping with prostitutes. Parents that circumcise are mutilators and the research is invalid because its done in Africa. I suggest people read from credible sources rather than this group.

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Agreed! Which is why I said to keep personal attack out of the debate.
  #729  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:46
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Thank you for your input.

When was it done in America? Secretly like it is done in Europe?
As mentioned, I believe up until about the 60s for percieved psychological reasons (read excuses). If it is done secretly in europe it should be considdered non-volentary mutilation unless the person was an adult and asked for it to be done and it should carry a sentance equal to mulitation of a non-willing adult. That simple, be it man or woman.

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The 4 of them have no sexual problems. Yes, they may not have the same sensitivity but they say they can last longer and can enjoy sex as much.
So because they are part of the lucky majority that did not have problems this makes it okay?

Oh, and by the way, how do they know they can last longer and than what? This is not true by the way, I have had these discussion amongst my male friends and I am pretty damn sure there is supporting research out there.

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Now, if I didn't have my clitoral hood: I can't tell since I have it. Would it be worst without? I have no idea. I have to say it is enough sensitive to reach a painful point sometimes which isn't fun either. But I am certainly not going into those details here, right?
So, does this mean that you would be willing to try it?

Does this mean that you would do it to your daughter?

Would you hold the knife yourself?

Does it mean that just because you don't know fully first hand what the effect is on cutting off a part of somebody's body without thier concent, it is right, no matter what guise or bullshit it is wrapped up around the act?
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  #730  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:49
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Sarah Palin would be proud. Keep repeating something - that hygiene is a myth - and (some) people will believe you. Thinking people will look further:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/714553
"...January 4, 2010 — The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) policy on newborn male circumcision, initiated in 1999 and reaffirmed in 2005, states that data are insufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. However, recent results from 3 randomized trials showing that it prevents sexually transmitted infections suggest that it is time to revise this policy to fully reflect these benefits, according to a review published in the January 2010 issue of the Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine.
“During the past 4 years, substantial new data have been published on the health benefits of circumcision,” write Aaron A. R. Tobian, MD, from Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, Maryland, and colleagues. “While the historical evidence strongly suggests that male circumcision reduces urinary tract infections and penile inflammatory disorders in infants, we reviewed the more recent evidence with regard to effects on sexually transmitted infections (STIs) in adulthood.”

To evaluate the effect of circumcision on HIV prevention, the researchers analyzed 3 randomized controlled trials of more than 10,000 men from South Africa, Kenya, and Uganda.

The trials enrolled HIV-negative men to circumcision on enrollment or after 21 to 24 months, and all 3 trials demonstrated that male circumcision significantly decreased male heterosexual HIV acquisition by 53% to 60%, despite differences in age eligibility criteria, urban or rural settings, and surgical procedure.

Results Prompted New WHO/UNAIDS Recommendations

Because of this new evidence, the World Health Organization (WHO), together with the Joint United Nations Program on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS), recommended that male circumcision be provided as an important intervention to reduce heterosexually acquired HIV in men, the study authors report."

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So if you take out the factors of religion, cultural differences and any medical reason there is no physical benefit to circumcising anyone, male or female.

They already debunked the hygiene myth and old man Kellogg was an advocate of doing it to stop young boys masturbating but, from a purely physiological point of view, there is no reason to do it.

That's probably what most of us "anti-circumcision people" base it on...
and I was accused of being "caught" in a lie. Just sayin'.
  #731  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:50
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

I vote this thread gets the chop...
  #732  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:51
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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The gist of the anti-circumcision point of view is deeply insulting to the debate - At its base is a "holier than thou" attitude.
Not really. For me I need more substantial evidence that circumcising my son for nothing other than religion or cultural reasons is a good idea.

Nothing holier-than-thou about it. So far, nobody has managed a convincing argument to support that on this thread.

Heroically tossing out some research that it stops the spread of STDs is (sorry) woolly at best.
  #733  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:53
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

The thread topic is "Circumcision: right or wrong". Its clearly a debate that shows the merits of both points of view. Readers will learn - unless we don't want them to circumcise their boys.

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I vote this thread gets the chop...
  #734  
Old 07.09.2011, 17:54
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I vote this thread gets the chop...
  #735  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:00
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Do you think my reference on the personal attack was about your study?
So you are now saying that having the read the study you now accept that FGM has a negligible affect on female sexual pleasure ?

If so then I apologise although I didn't mean any offence.
  #736  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:01
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

I seriously doubt you would be convinced by ~any~ research. If you, Perelle or Colinwheeler have something credible (other than the bible?) please share it. As for me, I am comfortable with John Hopkins University Hospital (leading US pediatric hospital), the American Academy of Pediatrics (their data, not their culturally-sensitive statement), the CDC, the World Health Organization and my friend that is parent to a circumcised boy that is employed (with a PHD) as a researcher for a leading global health organization studying STDs.

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Not really. For me I need more substantial evidence that circumcising my son for nothing other than religion or cultural reasons is a good idea.

Nothing holier-than-thou about it. So far, nobody has managed a convincing argument to support that on this thread.

Heroically tossing out some research that it stops the spread of STDs is (sorry) woolly at best.
  #737  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:08
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I seriously doubt you would be convinced by ~any~ research. If you, Perelle or Colinwheeler have something credible (other than the bible?) please share it. As for me, I am comfortable with John Hopkins University Hospital (leading US pediatric hospital), the American Academy of Pediatrics (their data, not their culturally-sensitive statement), the CDC, the World Health Organization and my friend that is parent to a circumcised boy that is employed (with a PHD) as a researcher for a leading global health organization studying STDs.
I take it that you were sitting on the fence (or anti) until fairly recently and it's only this new news that has made you change your mind on favour of circumcision?
  #738  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:12
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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If you, Perelle or Colinwheeler have something credible (other than the bible?) please share it.
What research are you looking for from me, that mutilation under the guise of any excuse is wrong? Sorry, that is a moral and an ethical point and does not need any research.

Cutting peices off people without concent is wrong. That simple.

If one as an adult feels that circumcising yourself will lower your chance of catching a STD, by all means please go ahead.

I guess Nil has gone to lie in the sun. Most probably a good choice. I am going for a swim in the Rhein and hopefully I won't catch anything.
  #739  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:13
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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If you, Perelle or Colinwheeler have something credible (other than the bible?) please share it.
I'm not really clued up on the bible but if memory serves me correctly, doesn't the bible advocate circumcision? Or at least some reference to it which is taken as today's green light for the procedure?

Who is Perelle?
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Old 07.09.2011, 18:17
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I'm not really clued up on the bible but if memory serves me correctly, doesn't the bible advocate circumcision? Or at least some reference to it which is taken as today's green light for the procedure?

Who is Perelle?

I believe the bible is for as well as against it, depending where you read and how you interpret it
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