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Old 07.09.2011, 18:20
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I seriously doubt you would be convinced by ~any~ research. If you, Perelle or Colinwheeler have something credible (other than the bible?) please share it. As for me, I am comfortable with John Hopkins University Hospital (leading US pediatric hospital), the American Academy of Pediatrics (their data, not their culturally-sensitive statement), the CDC, the World Health Organization and my friend that is parent to a circumcised boy that is employed (with a PHD) as a researcher for a leading global health organization studying STDs.
1) it's Johns Hopkins.
2) In what "pediatric" area is it the best?
3) In what way does your friend's opinion equates to data?
4) when did the CDC published their Final recommendation about it?.
5) When did the CDC issue a strong recommendation to people other than adults in high risk of HIV Infection in the US?
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Old 07.09.2011, 18:20
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I'm not really clued up on the bible but if memory serves me correctly, doesn't the bible advocate circumcision? Or at least some reference to it which is taken as today's green light for the procedure?

Who is Perelle?
Perelle = Parnell

It's in the Genesis 17

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0117.htm#1

But thankfully, the idea is not carried on in Europe among the general Christian community. To be honest, as a kid, I thought it was only the Jews doing it, therefore for a couple of years I thought America was a Jewish country... Things kids believe...
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Old 07.09.2011, 18:21
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Yes, absolutely. Its an important decision a new father of a boy has to make and I had no previous opinion about it - I was leaning toward no circumcision since its not as common in Europe. Then I ran into the John's Hopkins' article (see earlier post) which lead me look deeper and ask my friend (mentioned in the post). Then when I made an innocent mistake in my first post in an effort to share with the community what I learned, the anti-circumcision people jumped on me and from there on, my position hardened. Coming from the US, I get particularly riled up when people start pushing a religious agenda and disregarding medical science...

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I take it that you were sitting on the fence (or anti) until fairly recently and it's only this new news that has made you change your mind on favour of circumcision?
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Old 07.09.2011, 18:21
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

OK so I stayed away from this discussion basically cause I had no time to research but since I have some time now I will put some info here:

So WHO and the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS) have endorsed male circumcision as an additional strategy to HIV prevention. There have been at least three recent randomized controlled studies showing that circumcision of adult, African, heterosexual men reduces their risk for acquiring human immunodeficiency virus infection and other sexually transmitted infections ( MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2011 Sep 2;60:1167-8. Trends in in-hospital newborn male circumcision --- United States, 1999--2010. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)).

I also found an interesting study:

"Persistent high-risk human papillomavirus (HR-HPV) infection causes cervical cancer, the third leading cause of cancer mortality in women worldwide. High rates of HR-HPV and cervical cancer occur in sub-Saharan Africa and are exacerbated by the HIV epidemic, making prevention of HR-HPV and HIV priorities. Male circumcision reduces HIV acquisition in men. As presented in this article, randomized controlled trial data also demonstrate that male circumcision reduces penile HR-HPV infection in both HIV-negative and -positive men. Male circumcision of HIV-negative men also reduces the prevalence and incidence of HR-HPV infections in their female partners. However, male circumcision of HIV-positive men has no effect on HR-HPV infection in their female partners. These data demonstrate that male circumcision is most effective prior to sexual debut, and the presence of the male foreskin facilitates HIV and HR-HPV infection in men and their female partners. Additional studies that utilize the foreskin mucosa obtained at the time of male circumcision are needed to assess the mucosal microenvironment in HIV and HR-HPV coinfections to develop additional preventive and therapeutic approaches" (
Future Microbiol. 2011 Jul;6:739-45. Male foreskin and oncogenic human papillomavirus infection in men and their female partners. Tobian AA, Gray RH.)

So basically, male circumcision can be used to prevent spread of HIV and other STDs.
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  #745  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:22
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

the fanatics find what they want in a bible.

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I'm not really clued up on the bible but if memory serves me correctly, doesn't the bible advocate circumcision? Or at least some reference to it which is taken as today's green light for the procedure?

Who is Perelle?
  #746  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:23
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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1) it's Johns Hopkins.
2) In what "pediatric" area is it the best?
3) In what way does your friend's opinion equates to data?
4) when did the CDC published their Final recommendation about it?.
5) When did the CDC issue a strong recommendation to people other than adults in high risk of HIV Infection in the US?
3) there were three trials ran in African males.
4)They published it this year I have the reference in my previous post. EDIT: It is info from WHO and UNAIDS not CDC

I guess circumcision is done in small children because it is more risky in adults and a lot more painful ewwwww
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Old 07.09.2011, 18:26
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

1) Right Johns Hopkins. It was correct in previous posts - are you suggesting my credibility is impugned due to a typo?
2) http://health.usnews.com/best-hospit...spital-6320180
"With especially strong scores in 15 specialties, Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, MD, was named once again to the Best Hospitals Honor Roll. Johns Hopkins Hospital is ranked nationally in 16 adult and 10 pediatric specialties. This hospital is a 918-bed general medical and surgical facility with 47,275 annual admissions, according to the latest data. It performed 22,224 annual inpatient and 33,732 outpatient surgeries. Its emergency room had 86,050 visits. Johns Hopkins Hospital is a teaching hospital. It is also accredited by the Joint Commission (JC) and the Commission on Accreditation of Rehabilitation Facilities (CARF)."

3) As for my friend, its simply anecdotal - sorry if you misunderstood.
4/5) If you are suggesting the CDC doesn't support the conclusions I referenced, please show us.



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1) it's Johns Hopkins.
2) In what "pediatric" area is it the best?
3) In what way does your friend's opinion equates to data?
4) when did the CDC published their Final recommendation about it?.
5) When did the CDC issue a strong recommendation to people other than adults in high risk of HIV Infection in the US?
  #748  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:26
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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3) there were three trials ran in African males.
4)They published it this year I have the reference in my previous post.
do you mean this article?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21881548

I Can't download the full text I got their status (2009) from:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/resear...rcumcision.htm
  #749  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:28
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

all I know about the subject is that it's a lot like mineral water...

Some like it with, some like it without. Personally, I just like water.
  #750  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:31
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Right John Hopkins, the anti-circumcision people make a ~great~ point.
Yet you still write it wrong.


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As for my friend, its simply anecdotal - sorry if you misunderstood.
so when you say:
my friend that is parent to a circumcised boy that is employed (with a PHD) as a researcher for a leading global health organization studying STDs.

it's not an appeal to an "authority"?

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If you are suggesting the CDC doesn't support the conclusions I referenced, please show us.
I just provided the link above. I'm waiting to Angela to confirm the article so I can read it.
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Old 07.09.2011, 18:31
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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do you mean this article?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21881548

I Can't download the full text I got their status (2009) from:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/resear...rcumcision.htm
Sorry I got confused I meant WHO and (UNAIDS) not CDC, they are still working on it
  #752  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:37
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Then when I made an innocent mistake in my first post in an effort to share with the community what I learned, the anti-circumcision people jumped on me and from there on, my position hardened. Coming from the US, I get particularly riled up when people start pushing a religious agenda and disregarding medical science...
Blimey, if that's what you base that kind of decision on, I feel a bit sorry for your son.

Who has been pushing a religious agenda?

I thought the anti-circumcision people see religion in a wholly negative light as being responsible for pushing the procedure.
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Old 07.09.2011, 18:38
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Yes, absolutely. Its an important decision a new father of a boy has to make and I had no previous opinion about it - I was leaning toward no circumcision since its not as common in Europe. Then I ran into the John's Hopkins' article (see earlier post) which lead me look deeper and ask my friend (mentioned in the post). Then when I made an innocent mistake in my first post in an effort to share with the community what I learned, the anti-circumcision people jumped on me and from there on, my position hardened. Coming from the US, I get particularly riled up when people start pushing a religious agenda and disregarding medical science...
Where did I push any form of religion on you ?

Also you have until now not answered the question - why not leave it for the child to decide itself as it is after all it's their body that you're talking about hacking bits off ?
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Old 07.09.2011, 18:48
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Where did I push any form of religion on you ?

Also you have until now not answered the question - why not leave it for the child to decide itself as it is after all it's their body that you're talking about hacking bits off ?

I am playing devil's advocate here, it has been shown that circumcision is easier and less complicated when the patient is young, also the intervention is useful only when the person has not been exposed to STDs (Especially HIV). I really think that once a child is old enough to decide it might be a) too late due to already started sex life, b) he might be less likely to have it done due to inconvenience and recovery time.
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Old 07.09.2011, 18:50
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Yet you still write it wrong.
I know funny thing, typos. Were you confused? I know some people get extremely upset when they see it written as "George Washington University" and not "The George Washington University".

From CDC:
http://www.cdc.gov/std/treatment/2010/clinical.htm

Male Circumcision

Although male circumcision should not be substituted for other HIV risk-reduction strategies, it has been shown to reduce the risk for HIV and some STDs in heterosexual men. Three randomized, controlled trials performed in regions of sub-Saharan Africa where generalized HIV epidemics involving predominantly heterosexual transmission were occurring demonstrated that male circumcision reduced the risk for HIV acquisition among men by 50%–60% (48–50). In these trials, circumcision was also protective against other STDs, including high-risk genital HPV infection and genital herpes (51–54). Despite these data, male circumcision has not been demonstrated to reduce the risk for HIV or other STDs among MSM (55). The World Health Organization (WHO) and the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS) have recommended that male circumcision be scaled up as an effective intervention for the prevention of heterosexually acquired HIV infection (56). These organizations also recommend that countries with hyperendemic and generalized HIV epidemics and low prevalence of male circumcision expand access to safe male circumcision services within the context of ensuring universal access to comprehensive HIV prevention, treatment, care, and support. Similar recommendations have not been made in the United States, although evidence regarding the role of male circumcision in the prevention of HIV/AIDS is under review (57).



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Old 07.09.2011, 18:57
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Sandgrounder - Given the fact you have entirely missed how I made my decision, after all of these posts, its not surprising you are immune to information from credible sources on the health benefits of circumcision. Fortunately, I don't think people are taking your posts too seriously on the topic. And BTW, I feel sorry for your husband.

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Blimey, if that's what you base that kind of decision on, I feel a bit sorry for your son.

Who has been pushing a religious agenda?

I thought the anti-circumcision people see religion in a wholly negative light as being responsible for pushing the procedure.
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Old 07.09.2011, 18:58
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I am playing devil's advocate here, it has been shown that circumcision is easier and less complicated when the patient is young, also the intervention is useful only when the person has not been exposed to STDs (Especially HIV). I really think that once a child is old enough to decide it might be a) too late due to already started sex life, b) he might be less likely to have it done due to inconvenience and recovery time.
Could you please provide evidence to back up your first statement ?

Secondly do you feel that the reasons you have outlined are more important than a child's right to decide what to do with his or her own body ?
  #758  
Old 07.09.2011, 18:59
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

in what way does that research grant grounds for the disposition of another person's body that:

a) will not be in risk immediately
b) does not have the chance to follow through informed consent.

from hyperlink 56

Conclusion 5: Human rights, legal and ethical principles must guide service delivery
As is the case with medical and health procedures generally, promoting male circumcision for HIV prevention raises human rights, legal and ethical issues. Taking a human rights- based approach to the development or expansion of male circumcision services requires measures that ensure that the procedure can be carried out safely, under conditions of informed consent(bolded by me), and without coercion or discrimination. Such measures should already be features of good medical care.

also , nice changing your post back thereby adding this after I replied:

Quote:

http://health.usnews.com/best-hospit...spital-6320180
"With especially strong scores in 15 specialties, Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, MD, was named once again to the Best Hospitals Honor Roll. Johns Hopkins Hospital is ranked nationally in 16 adult and 10 pediatric specialties. This hospital is a 918-bed general medical and surgical facility with 47,275 annual admissions, according to the latest data. It performed 22,224 annual inpatient and 33,732 outpatient surgeries. Its emergency room had 86,050 visits. Johns Hopkins Hospital is a teaching hospital. It is also accredited by the Joint Commission (JC) and the Commission on Accreditation of Rehabilitation Facilities (CARF)."
So, which of the 10 pediatric specialties handles STD'S and their infection rates on infants?
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Last edited by Ouchboy; 07.09.2011 at 19:17.
  #759  
Old 07.09.2011, 19:14
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Could you please provide evidence to back up your first statement ?

Secondly do you feel that the reasons you have outlined are more important than a child's right to decide what to do with his or her own body ?
I found this very interesting link about your first comment http://www.circinfo.net/the_procedure_itself.html

About the second one, this is a bit more tricky I believe. You are asking me what I feel which is of course subjective, what I think (slightly less subjective, ok maybe not) is that I as a parent I have to take responsibility for my actions, I am sure that male circumcision in my child is not going to be detrimental, quiet the opposite, it will be a good decision. I would then as a responsible parent be prepared to take that decision. Again, this is in my case.
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:15
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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in what way does that research grant grounds for the disposition of another person's body that:

a) will not be in risk immediately
b) does not have the chance to follow through informed consent.

from hyperlink 56

Conclusion 5: Human rights, legal and ethical principles must guide service delivery
As is the case with medical and health procedures generally, promoting male circumcision for HIV prevention raises human rights, legal and ethical issues. Taking a human rights- based approach to the development or expansion of male circumcision services requires measures that ensure that the procedure can be carried out safely, under conditions of informed consent(bolded by me), and without coercion or discrimination. Such measures should already be features of good medical care.
Ouchy as much as I luuuuv ya, I think you are overreacting.
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