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Old 07.09.2011, 19:20
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Ouchy as much as I luuuuv ya, I think you are overreacting.
I feel like I should say it to, I love you too Man! Really! I am with Angie on this one. Love love love!
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:20
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Ouchy as much as I luuuuv ya, I think you are overreacting.
Nah, you see. If you are a consenting adult that wants to do whatever you want to do unto your body, more power to you. I can even go ahead and say that you could do it for people under your custodial care that are under immediate threat.

But to say that you can do it to avoid complications of a surgery that an informed adult may decide to take or not take (for whatever reason) seems to me immoral.

So , when people throw the scientific data that shows that it reduces AIDS in this forum, they still seem to be missing the point; that you are imposing your will over other people.
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:20
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Right. And vaccines?

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in what way does that research grant grounds for the disposition of another person's body that:

a) will not be in risk immediately
b) does not have the chance to follow through informed consent.

from hyperlink 56

Conclusion 5: Human rights, legal and ethical principles must guide service delivery
As is the case with medical and health procedures generally, promoting male circumcision for HIV prevention raises human rights, legal and ethical issues. Taking a human rights- based approach to the development or expansion of male circumcision services requires measures that ensure that the procedure can be carried out safely, under conditions of informed consent(bolded by me), and without coercion or discrimination. Such measures should already be features of good medical care.
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:23
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Right. And vaccines?
you are talking about polio or a non existent aids vaccine?
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:24
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Sandgrounder - Given the fact you have entirely missed how I made my decision, after all of these posts, its not surprising you are immune to information from credible sources on the health benefits of circumcision. Fortunately, I don't think people are taking your posts too seriously on the topic. And BTW, I feel sorry for your husband.
You still haven't explained why you think people against circumcision are pushing a religious agenda - or do you need one of your PhD mates to proffer a quote to help you out?
  #766  
Old 07.09.2011, 19:24
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

[QUOTE=Angela-74;1330976]I found this very interesting link about your first comment http://www.circinfo.net/the_procedure_itself.html

This is a very biased pro-circ website - with some obvious factual errors :
http://www.circinfo.net/the_circumcision-debate.html
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In the USA circumcision has always been common amongst the majority Anglo-Celtic Whites and also amongst Afro-American Blacks. Australia similarly once conducted routine circumcision of all newborn boys. In both countries a down-turn took place after the mid-1970s, but is now rising again in each as the medical and health benefits are becoming better known.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...e_circumcision
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Non-religious circumcision in English-speaking countries arose in a climate of negative attitudes towards sex, especially concerning masturbation. In her 1978 article The Ritual of Circumcision,[40] Karen Erickson Paige writes: "In the United States, the current medical rationale for circumcision developed after the operation was in wide practice. The original reason for the surgical removal of the foreskin, or prepuce, was to control 'masturbatory insanity' – the range of mental disorders that people believed were caused by the 'polluting' practice of 'self-abuse.'"
"Self-abuse" was a term commonly used to describe masturbation in the 19th century. According to Paige, "treatments ranged from diet, moral exhortations, hydrotherapy, and marriage, to such drastic measures as surgery, physical restraints, frights, and punishment. Some doctors recommended covering the penis with plaster of Paris, leather, or rubber; cauterization; making boys wear chastity belts or spiked rings; and in extreme cases, castration." Paige details how circumcision became popular as a masturbation remedy:
"In the 1890s, it became a popular technique to prevent, or cure, masturbatory insanity. In 1891 the president of the Royal College of Surgeons of England published On Circumcision as Preventive of Masturbation, and two years later another British doctor wrote Circumcision: Its Advantages and How to Perform It, which listed the reasons for removing the 'vestigial' prepuce. Evidently the foreskin could cause 'nocturnal incontinence,' hysteria, epilepsy, and irritation that might 'give rise to erotic stimulation and, consequently, masturbation.' Another physician, P.C. Remondino, added that 'circumcision is like a substantial and well-secured life annuity...it insures better health, greater capacity for labor, longer life, less nervousness, sickness, loss of time, and less doctor bills.' No wonder it became a popular remedy."[40] At the same time circumcisions were advocated on men, clitoridectomies (removal of the clitoris) were also performed for the same reason (to treat female masturbators). The US "Orificial Surgery Society" for female "circumcision" operated until 1925, and clitoridectomies and infibulations would continue to be advocated by some through the 1930s. As late as 1936, L. E. Holt, an author of pediatric textbooks, advocated male and female circumcision as a treatment for masturbation.[40]
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About the second one, this is a bit more tricky I believe. You are asking me what I feel which is of course subjective, what I think (slightly less subjective, ok maybe not) is that I as a parent I have to take responsibility for my actions, I am sure that male circumcision in my child is not going to be detrimental, quiet the opposite, it will be a good decision. I would then as a responsible parent be prepared to take that decision. Again, this is in my case.
I am sure that you cannot be sure , nor can I of what is best for another human being - and certainly no degree of certainty - and certainly none from reading dodgy websites would lead me to allow someone to remove bits from my child. Have you read the comments from the posters who have been upset at their parents denying them their right to an intact body ?
  #767  
Old 07.09.2011, 19:26
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

So will chopping the whole willy off prevent population explosion, thus famine, and also the huge incidence of rape in Africa ?
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:26
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Nah, you see. If you are a consenting adult that wants to do whatever you want to do unto your body, more power to you. I can even go ahead and say that you could do it for people under your custodial care that are under immediate threat.

But to say that you can do it to avoid complications of a surgery that an informed adult may decide to take or not take (for whatever reason) seems to me immoral.

So , when people throw the scientific data that shows that it reduces AIDS in this forum, they still seem to be missing the point; that you are imposing your will over other people.
The thing is as an adult, you need more recovery time and you'll bleed a lot. Plus you have this period of getting use to it and higher risk of infection. As a new born, the procedure is very quick, no stiches needed and almost no bleeding at all. More often babies will cry more for a vaccine than the procedure itself.
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:29
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I am sure that you cannot be sure , nor can I of what is best for another human being - and certainly no degree of certainty - and certainly none from reading dodgy websites would lead me to allow someone to remove bits from my child. Have you read the comments from the posters who have been upset at their parents denying them their right to an intact body ?
Well I am sure you can not be sure I can not be sure...
So you already got information from WHO and UNAIDS that circumcision has been shown to reduce risk for HIV and other STDs.
I did not copy a more scientific article mainly because I have no time to look for a peer review, population based study from which I could draw better conclusions.
SO you say sou would not circumcise your child, that is perfect but I would circumcise mine. It is my opinion. I am not trying to convience you to do otherwise and since you mention dodgy websites, I am not going to go and read about a bunch of people complaining about why their parents chose circumcision as I really think there are more important things to worry about in life.
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:30
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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So will chopping the whole willy off prevent population explosion, thus famine, and also the huge incidence of rape in Africa ?
I think researchers might find some problems recruiting patients for such a study
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:32
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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The thing is as an adult, you need more recovery time and you'll bleed a lot. Plus you have this period of getting use to it and higher risk of infection. As a new born, the procedure is very quick, no stiches needed and almost no bleeding at all. More often babies will cry more for a vaccine than the procedure itself.
Don't suppose that you have any evidence to back any of those statements up ?
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:33
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Well I am sure you can not be sure I can not be sure...
So you already got information from WHO and UNAIDS that circumcision has been shown to reduce risk for HIV and other STDs.
I did not copy a more scientific article mainly because I have no time to look for a peer review, population based study from which I could draw better conclusions.
SO you say sou would not circumcise your child, that is perfect but I would circumcise mine. It is my opinion. I am not trying to convience you to do otherwise and since you mention dodgy websites, I am not going to go and read about a bunch of people complaining about why their parents chose circumcision as I really think there are more important things to worry about in life.
umm I was referring to posters on THIS website - this thread in fact - if you consider that dodgy then what does that say about you ?
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:34
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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But to say that you can do it to avoid complications of a surgery that an informed adult may decide to take or not take (for whatever reason) seems to me immoral.

So , when people throw the scientific data that shows that it reduces AIDS in this forum, they still seem to be missing the point; that you are imposing your will over other people.
I honestly do not see why people get so upset about this, then again I do not have a willy so cant really relate but that is hardly (no pun intended) the point.
I would feel that it is even more immoral then that my parents impose a religion on me, after all no one can prove beyond reasonable doubt that God does exist. Anyways, I was just puting the information that is out there in peer reviewed journals (refering to my frist post) but I do not intend to convience people to circumcise their offspring. Because truly, the bottom line is : it is none of my business. Even as a physician, all one can do is recommend treatment, but one can not force it upon a patient/parent.
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:34
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

infant immunizations

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you are talking about polio or a non existent aids vaccine?
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:36
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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umm I was referring to posters on THIS website - this thread in fact - if you consider that dodgy then what does that say about you ?
It would say that I read dodgy posts like yours, yes I am ashamed of myself
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:40
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I honestly do not see why people get so upset about this, then again I do not have a willy so cant really relate but that is hardly (no pun intended) the point.
I don't get bent out of shape, but it's rather weird the approach. On something that It will not be life threatening for the next.. what 15 years? vs the potential deprivation of a feeling in their life.


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I would feel that it is even more immoral then that my parents impose a religion on me, after all no one can prove beyond reasonable doubt that God does exist. Anyways, I was just puting the information that is out there in peer reviewed journals (refering to my frist post) but I do not intend to convience people to circumcise their offspring. Because truly, the bottom line is : it is none of my business. Even as a physician, all one can do is recommend treatment, but one can not force it upon a patient/parent.
I agree with you on that. And the fact that as a physician you have to only recommend and not force is more or less the same. Imposition seems overall immoral ( And I don't mean burn them at the stake immoral) I thank you for the info, that's why I asked about the report, so I could read it.
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:42
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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And I don't mean burn them at the stake immoral) I thank you for the info, that's why I asked about the report, so I could read it.
I know .....
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:47
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

You know, I keep having to rehash things you miss - like you missing the basis of my decision or the evidence of hygiene benefit. I are either doing it on purpose to confuse the issue or you have some kind of problem. To answer your question - YES.I.HAVE - go back and read. Please show where I have quoted a friend with a PhD. Its true I mentioned a friend's decision to circumcise her boy and that she is a PhD in public health, employed by an organization that studies STD's internationally. I didn't quote her and I don't need her "help" dealing with you. I might turn the question back to you - do you have a credible source to back up your opinion, besides your husband's sensitive boxers. So far, correct me if I am wrong, you only want others to provide credible sources. Seriously.

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You still haven't explained why you think people against circumcision are pushing a religious agenda - or do you need one of your PhD mates to proffer a quote to help you out?
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:48
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Actually wouldn't people against circumcision would be against people who have a religious agenda? Am I getting confused or dumber by the moment...time to stop working I guess
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Old 07.09.2011, 19:54
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Right. And vaccines?
Ok A2Z, you believe that circumcision will help your child with possible HIV risk. Fine.

But you can't compare vaccinating your child against a disease, such as small pox which is airborn, to circumcision as "vaccine" against AIDS and other STDs. Whether hte relation between HIV transmission/circumcision it is true or not, a shot, even with possible side effects, can't be compared to cutting part of a human body. Specially if there is a variant (like the use of a condom) which, though not 100% guarantee, has probably a higher chance of stopping the transmition of STDs.

You want to defend circumcision, fine. No problem there. But informed consent debate over vaccines (for diseases that might attack you as soon as you pop out) and over STDS (which might attack you after you hit puberty) is a bit over the top...

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Actually wouldn't people against circumcision would be against people who have a religious agenda? Am I getting confused or dumber by the moment...time to stop working I guess
I'm against circumcision because of my own reasons, but I don't see it so much as a religious agenda. At least as I understood from diverse movies/ documentaries/ posts here, the reason to do it in America nowadays, for example, has nothing to do with religion, right?
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