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  #901  
Old 09.10.2015, 23:37
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

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Well yes, agreed- but then there is no need to tell others it makes no difference, in such a defensive way.

Those figures for the USA are truly worrying- if that is the kind of mortality linked to circumcision in the USA, imagine what it could be like in countries without a well organised health care system That will do for me.
That's nothing - the USA has long wrapped itself in knots on this issue - even/especially involving its most extreme practices :

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/fai...ction-678.html

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The city was notified of the infection in April but hushed it up until after it, at the urging of Mayor Bill de Blasio and health commissioner Dr. Mary Bassett, voted to end its weak informed consent requirement for MBP and move to an even less restrictive protocol based almost entirely on voluntary cooperation from haredim – cooperation that does not appear to be forthcoming.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/fai...laims-567.html

Speaking at a rabbinical conference in London, England, Rabbi Hershel Schachter, the rosh yeshiva of Yeshiva University's rabbinical school, claims 15 Jewish babies die every year in the New York City area from herpes transmitted by the haredi circumcision direct mouth-to-bloody-penis-suction known as metzitzah b'peh. Schachter says that hospitals and doctors cover up these cases because otherwise the hasidim will stop coming to them.
  #902  
Old 10.10.2015, 00:53
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

I'm generally against pre-consensual irreversible cosmetic surgery, and that is the nicest sounding category I can think of to put childhood circumcision in.

I've zero problem with adults who decide they want it for themselves, but I think the medical necessity bar for children should be weighted the same as any other surgery causing a permanent and noticeable anatomical change.
  #903  
Old 10.10.2015, 08:17
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Re: Poll: Surgical removal of the prepuce covering the glans.

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... and so is parental choice for abuse, surely? What other reason apart from religious would there be to circumcise a baby? I mean, if it is just for looks, or to match with daddy... etc- then why not get the ears and nose done at the same time?
Duh!

Medical.
  #904  
Old 10.10.2015, 09:21
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

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A bit of foreskin makes no big difference in my case.

Tom
All relative Tom
  #905  
Old 10.10.2015, 11:39
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Re: Poll: Surgical removal of the prepuce covering the glans.

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Duh!

Medical.
THANKS - yes MEDICAL doh!


  #906  
Old 10.10.2015, 11:48
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

So may I ask a question then to the advocates of circumcision. I totally understad that some have done so for religious reasons- perhaps because of intense pressure from in-laws, where not doing this would have caused so much hassle (the case for my OH- his little brother was not done as they were no longer near the family). Or for medical reasons.

If not for either, what was your reason. Aesthetics, cultural, to match 'you', other? Please help us understand.
  #907  
Old 10.10.2015, 11:56
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Re: Poll: Surgical removal of the prepuce covering the glans.

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THANKS - yes MEDICAL doh!


Medical reasons can be abused rather easily, you do realise that abortion in the UK is only allowed on medical reasons 2 Dr's have to agree!

Section 1(1) of the Abortion Act 1967
In England and Wales and Scotland, section 1(1) of the Abortion Act 1967 now reads:[1]

Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith -

(a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or
(b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or
(c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated
(d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.
  #908  
Old 10.10.2015, 12:15
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Honestl- did you really need to post all the conditions for abortion to make your point. Is there really a link between the two in your mind? And here we go, back to that condom again- or at your age, perhaps better and safer solutions.

Yes, I am aware of this- but at least it would be a start. And then those operations would have to be registered to those doctors, and very easy to spot those who are performing them rather more frequently than others and begin to ask questions.

Someone made me aware yesterday, that in Germany circumcision for anything other than strong medical reasons, is totally forbidden.
  #909  
Old 10.10.2015, 12:21
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Honestl- did you really need to post all the conditions for abortion to make your point. Is there really a link between the two in your mind? And here we go, back to that condom again- or at your age, perhaps better and safer solutions.

Yes, I am aware of this- but at least it would be a start. And then those operations would have to be registered to those doctors, and very easy to spot those who are performing them rather more frequently than others and begin to ask questions.

Someone made me aware yesterday, that in Germany circumcision for anything other than strong medical reasons, is totally forbidden.
I think it was important to post what the law in the UK says, then it's clear how easy to see how this is abused by Dr's on a daily basis, so clearly no protection whatsoever. As you know abortion in the UK is virtually 'on demand'.

Most abortions are performed by a limited no of surgeons...... nobody ever asks questions.........

What is the definition of 'strong' medical reasons, how will this be different if Dr's can't police themselves?
  #910  
Old 10.10.2015, 12:37
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Honestl- did you really need to post all the conditions for abortion to make your point. Is there really a link between the two in your mind? And here we go, back to that condom again- or at your age, perhaps better and safer solutions.

Yes, I am aware of this- but at least it would be a start. And then those operations would have to be registered to those doctors, and very easy to spot those who are performing them rather more frequently than others and begin to ask questions.

Someone made me aware yesterday, that in Germany circumcision for anything other than strong medical reasons, is totally forbidden.
I though it was only for a short time, before various "interested parties" had pushed back enough so they could still do it (for religious reasons).

Ah, yes:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zirkumzision#Deutschland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circum...nd_law#Germany

The law:
https://dejure.org/gesetze/BGB/1631d.html

Personally, I'm not happy about that. It means that a large enough pressure group can re-define what is good and bad (happens all the time in law-making, I know - but still).

Don't know if someone has already posted that link:
http://blog.tagesanzeiger.ch/mamablo...-ja-oder-nein/

the topic just reached Swiss main-stream media (sort of).
Maybe a couple of those blog-authors read here, too ;-)
  #911  
Old 10.10.2015, 12:44
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Fatmanfilms, if you were a woman, you'd understand that abortion is a horrific choice. I myself can't even call it a choice. Abortions are done by persons able to consent to it.

But back to the topic of circumcision...where religious zealots can pressure their flocks to do barbaric and unnecessary mutilations; barbaric because the person in question has no say in the matter of their own body.

Last edited by FunnyBone; 10.10.2015 at 13:02.
  #912  
Old 10.10.2015, 12:59
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Exactly Funnybone.

Sadly and tragically, for some women, and I know it is impossible for many to understand, abortion has become a form of contraception- and the system totally abused, and in that FMF is correct. One French woman author recently wrote a book about her abortions. Can't remember the exact number, but she had over 30. Again and again, women are given support and advice before and after abortion, and say 'no, I don't believe in contraception' and won't discuss sterilisation, even after 4, 5 abortions.

But this is not what we are discussing. Abortion clinics are totally different things, for totally different reasons. The reason some doctors continue to perform abortions on those women, is that they feel they cannot punish an unborn child and allow him/her to come into the world to such a life and lifestyle
  #913  
Old 10.10.2015, 13:00
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

And this, my friends, is what removing the posting limit brings us.

Seriously, haven't you guys got bored of taunting each other yet? It's not like anyone's going to be persuaded to change their views, and you've long passed the point of giving useful information to any undecided parties.

Time to call it a day on this topic, don't you think?
  #914  
Old 10.10.2015, 13:05
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Fatmanfilms, if you were a woman, you'd understand that abortion is a horrific choice. I myself can't even call it a choice.

But back to the topic of circumcision...where religious zealots can pressure their flocks to do barbaric and unnecessary mutilations; barbaric because the person in question has no say in the matter of their own bodies.
I don't have an issue with abortion, I think it should be available at the mothers choice.

Parents make lots of choices in how they bring up their children, their education, their religion etc. The law in the UK does not think it's barbaric, until such time as that changes it's the parents choice.

In Switzerland assisted suicide is legal, in the UK it's a criminal offence. It's possible to argue that both systems are barbaric depending on POV.

People have a choice to go & live in another country, if they are not comfortable with the law where they live,
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Exactly Funnybone.

Sadly and tragically, for some women, and I know it is impossible for many to understand, abortion has become a form of contraception- and the system totally abused, and in that FMF is correct. One French woman author recently wrote a book about her abortions. Can't remember the exact number, but she had over 30. Again and again, women are given support and advice before and after abortion, and say 'no, I don't believe in contraception' and won't discuss sterilisation, even after 4, 5 abortions.

But this is not what we are discussing. Abortion clinics are totally different things, for totally different reasons. The reason some doctors continue to perform abortions on those women, is that they feel they cannot punish an unborn child and allow him/her to come into the world to such a life and lifestyle
Perhaps you should reflect to what happened when abortions were illegal, they still happened. Many mothers died.
  #915  
Old 10.10.2015, 13:15
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

@ace1

Nope... for the reason that if we lived in a country where FGM was legal we shouldn't just shut up and accept that either.

Male circumcision is dying out in the US - numbers are falling rapidly - which is exactly what happened to FGM in the US as well (although it was never practiced so widely) - once it's gotten below a certain threshold then the masses will willingly accept it for the mutilation it is by definition - mostly because the proportion who did it to their children will become small enough that they'll be societally acceptable for them to deal with their collective guilt - rather than shove their head in the ground.

Last edited by parnell; 10.10.2015 at 15:30.
  #916  
Old 10.10.2015, 13:20
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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And this, my friends, is what removing the posting limit brings us.

Seriously, haven't you guys got bored of taunting each other yet? It's not like anyone's going to be persuaded to change their views, and you've long passed the point of giving useful information to any undecided parties.

Time to call it a day on this topic, don't you think?
You remember the Grapes? There was a "the Grapes" in every town in England, but it wasn't always called "the Grapes". The Grapes was a nasty pub situated on the edge of a post-war housing estate, with sticky carpets, bad beer and bloodstains on the toilet doors. In the eighties, the Grapes was populated by ugly short men with prickly moustaches and pink and grey sweatshirts. If you were a local, you might get away with a quiet pint of Carling Black Label in the lounge. If you were an occasional visitor, you'd be better off spending the evening in Beirut.

The Grapes was great, though, because it meant that the King's Head, the Red Lion, the Saracen's Head and the Fountain were comfortable, pleasant places to spend the evening.

This thread is the Grapes.

  #917  
Old 10.10.2015, 13:31
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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This thread is the Grapes.

But even the Grapes called "Time" now and then.
  #918  
Old 10.10.2015, 13:31
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Perhaps you should reflect to what happened when abortions were illegal, they still happened. Many mothers died.

Of course I do- which is why in the 60s when I was a young woman, I was really happy to have the pill- and be given the choice to be sexually responsible.

Accidents do happen though, and I am absolutely 100% in favour of abortion and choice. But when it becomes a mode of contraception for some, who refuse any kind of other contraception available and support, and even after 5+ abortions - will refuse to even consider contraception or sterilisation, then it becomes WRONG, totally - and also very hard on the doctors and medical staff, who have to live with their conscience too, at the end of the day. Performing abortion again and again, on the same women, who often also declare late- is very hard on them too, I can tell you. In fact, I know several Catholic and Muslim obstetricians who refuse to do so on religious grounds- and therefore 'force' their colleagues, totally unfairly, to spend a large part of their day performing an unfair % of abortions, which is truly not what they worked so hard to become obstetricians for. Try to imagine what it feels like.
  #919  
Old 10.10.2015, 13:36
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

I am looking forward to the time when the male pill will be widely available. That will put the onus on both parties, and there will be less woman blaming.
  #920  
Old 10.10.2015, 13:52
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

My circumcision was a terrible experience because the doctor was short sighted.

He got the sack.
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