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  #941  
Old 10.10.2015, 21:07
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Nope. They will get it done anyway. Just not safely and it will give the anti-circumcision crew even more ammo!

This isn't cultural. It's religious.
Wrong - it's both - plenty of Christians do it in the USA - for its origins look no further than Kellogg who insisted that pouring acid on the genitals of children was a cure for masturbation when circumcision didnt work - and yes for both sexes.

Secondly some will still get it done - I did write that above - but LESS will - therefore it is worthwhile and over time it will die out - which is the ideal outcome.

Put bluntly toleration of child mutilation is unacceptable - regardless of culture or religion.

EDIT: Take a look at this :
https://www.rt.com/usa/235475-circum...thodox-jewish/

That's a tradition where the Jewish priest (mohel) puts his mouth on the freshly circumcised penis and sucks blood out - many many babies have died in New York as a result of contracting herpes - very serious for a new born... should that be tolerated too ???
  #942  
Old 10.10.2015, 21:56
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Ultimately though less children will have parts of their bodies taken away from them without their consent - which would be progress.
But if those that do even if there are fewer of them suffer much more at the hands of illegal backstreet 'butchers' how is that progress?
  #943  
Old 10.10.2015, 23:16
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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But if those that do even if there are fewer of them suffer much more at the hands of illegal backstreet 'butchers' how is that progress?
uh you do know what training is legally required for the average mohel/imam today ???

EDIT: Listen it's the same thing as FGM , because some people are daft enough to cut their own kids doesn't mean they should be allowed to or have the sanction of the law.
  #944  
Old 11.10.2015, 10:54
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Put bluntly toleration of child mutilation is unacceptable - regardless of culture or religion.
... should that be tolerated too ???
accepted and tolerated by whom?
  #945  
Old 11.10.2015, 11:05
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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accepted and tolerated by whom?
society and it's inhabitants - which over time mould the laws to suit their views - as per homosexuality , abortion etc etc

Here's J. Kellogg on the evils of masturbation and how to prevent it in 1888 in the good ol US of A:

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A remedy which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision, especially when there is any degree of phimosis. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment, as it may well be in some cases. The soreness which continues for several weeks interrupts the practice, and if it had not previously become too firmly fixed, it may be forgotten and not resumed.

....

In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid (phenol) to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement.
None of the above is illegal to this day in the US in respect of males but thankfully it is for females.
  #946  
Old 11.10.2015, 11:36
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

Which society and which inhabitants? Circumcision has been practiced by thousands of years, and is a prerequisite to entry into some societies and is a religious observance.

So are some people's sensibilities superior to other people's religions or cultures, so should be enforced on them? Who has this such superior sensibility?
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Old 11.10.2015, 11:47
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

But we have moved on from the 1888 views, haven't we? While this "advice" is still legal (that is, the law hasn't been nullified, like many other obscure and crazy laws), I haven't heard anyone circumcising their boy or hurting a girl's clit to prevent future masturbation.

Seeing how societies are fluid, Minnesota had a "Merkel moment", way before she had it, of allowing a gazillion of Somali and other African immigrants to come and settle in the state (but not the idea of distributing them to other states). In any case, these people have brought with them FGM practice which is creating a lot of problems. So, I suppose, that brings us back to 1888, and have to start (again) reeducating those who had no opportunity for education in their old homelands.
  #948  
Old 11.10.2015, 11:51
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

I say legalize circumcision everywhere in Europe and tax whoever wants to do it! If they are stupid enough to cut off their dicks they will be stupid enough to pay tax for the privilege!

We can use the money gathered to educate the other religions why it's wrong from a medical and natural point of view. The jews and muslims can keep on doing it until the end of times.

Problem solved.
  #949  
Old 11.10.2015, 11:52
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Which society and which inhabitants?
Any society that evolves - if you know of one that does not then please let me know.

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Circumcision has been practiced by thousands of years,
As has ritual sacrifice , slavery and child labour

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and is a prerequisite to entry into some societies and is a religious observance.
Nope - plenty of Muslims and Jews no longer circumcise - see Brit Shalom. They are not cast outs.
http://www.britshalom.info/

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So are some people's sensibilities superior to other people's religions or cultures, so should be enforced on them?
Exactly the same counter argument has been made - against FGM - and thankfully - defeated.

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Who has this such superior sensibility?
Those who do least harm to others.

Last edited by parnell; 11.10.2015 at 12:03.
  #950  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:00
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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But we have moved on from the 1888 views, haven't we? While this "advice" is still legal (that is, the law hasn't been nullified, like many other obscure and crazy laws), I haven't heard anyone circumcising their boy or hurting a girl's clit to prevent future masturbation.
Only very recently :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ation_concerns

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Circumcision in English-speaking countries arose in a climate of negative attitudes towards sex, especially concerning masturbation. In her 1978 article The Ritual of Circumcision,[55] Karen Erickson Paige writes: "The current medical rationale for circumcision developed after the operation was in wide practice. The original reason for the surgical removal of the foreskin, or prepuce, was to control 'masturbatory insanity' – the range of mental disorders that people believed were caused by the 'polluting' practice of 'self-abuse.'"

"Self-abuse" was a term commonly used to describe masturbation in the 19th century. According to Paige, "treatments ranged from diet, moral exhortations, hydrotherapy, and marriage, to such drastic measures as surgery, physical restraints, frights, and punishment. Some doctors recommended covering the penis with plaster of Paris, leather, or rubber; cauterization; making boys wear chastity belts or spiked rings; and in extreme cases, castration." Paige details how circumcision became popular as a masturbation remedy:

In the 1890s, it became a popular technique to prevent, or cure, masturbatory insanity. In 1891 the president of the Royal College of Surgeons of England published On Circumcision as Preventive of Masturbation, and two years later another British doctor wrote Circumcision: Its Advantages and How to Perform It, which listed the reasons for removing the "vestigial" prepuce. Evidently the foreskin could cause "nocturnal incontinence," hysteria, epilepsy, and irritation that might "give rise to erotic stimulation and, consequently, masturbation." Another physician, P.C. Remondino, added that "circumcision is like a substantial and well-secured life annuity ... it insures better health, greater capacity for labor, longer life, less nervousness, sickness, loss of time, and less doctor bills." No wonder it became a popular remedy.[55]

At the same time circumcisions were advocated on men, clitoridectomies (removal of the clitoris) were also performed for the same reason (to treat female masturbators). The US "Orificial Surgery Society" for female "circumcision" operated until 1925, and clitoridectomies and infibulations would continue to be advocated by some through the 1930s. As late as 1936, L. E. Holt, an author of pediatric textbooks, advocated male and female circumcision as a treatment for masturbation.[55]
When I was very young and became interested in the topic the cause of choice was prevention of UTIs - despite the fact that the US rate was a multiple of those in Europe at the time - now it's moved onto AIDS prevention - despite the fact that most newborns are unlikely to be engaging in sex...
  #951  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:02
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

I can't speak for FGM and what that is about, and would favor total banning of it. Its disgusting and so unnecessary. But as for male circumcision, it is a basic tenet of Abrahamic religions, which have proven their worth in what they already contributed to civilization. I would say their contributions to humanity trump trendy sentiments.
  #952  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:04
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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now it's moved onto AIDS prevention
... and this is tragic because the glans is a sponge and will suck in fluids you don't want me to describe too graphically here and AIDS is not prevented by a fallacious cherry picking interpretation of general statistics, but by using condoms on any kind of penis.
  #953  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:08
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Nope - plenty of Muslims and Jews no longer circumcise - see Brit Shalom. They are not cast outs.
http://www.britshalom.info/
.
The link in no way confirms what you are saying.

The best I can read is

"Brit Shalom is a naming ceremony for Jewish families opting out of circumcision."
"However, they are all committed to providing service to families unwilling to circumcise their sons"

Muslims not mentioned at all & no mention of what percentage of Jews are doing this. With only 132 Rabbis doing this they could easily be 'cast outs'
  #954  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:09
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I can't speak for FGM and what that is about, and would favor total banning of it. Its disgusting and so unnecessary.
Which differs from male circumcision how ???

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But as for male circumcision, it is a basic tenet of Abrahamic religions, which have proven their worth in what they already contributed to civilization. I would say their contributions to humanity trump trendy sentiments.
Nonsense - Christianity for one is Abrahamic and has no such commandment for cutting children. And as I have demonstrated above Judaism has moved on albeit more slowly as well. Saying that you think that a certain evolution of human thought as a whole is progressive without swallowing the entire thing is entirely correct - to take an extreme example should we stop building autobahns because the Nazis came up with them ???
  #955  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:17
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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The link in no way confirms what you are saying.

The best I can read is

"Brit Shalom is a naming ceremony for Jewish families opting out of circumcision."
"However, they are all committed to providing service to families unwilling to circumcise their sons"
Hmm what do you think I am saying ? To reiterate what I am saying is that Jewish people can perfectly well avoid cutting their boys and remain Jewish. The fact that Rabbis perform the ceremony should have helped you with your understanding of that point.

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Muslims not mentioned at all & no mention of what percentage of Jews are doing this. With only 132 Rabbis doing this they could easily be 'cast outs'
I know plenty of Muslims who drink alcohol as well and to be entirely open I can't say that I know of any who have been stopped at the mosque. Do you ???

The Jewish people are one of the most disparate and colourful cohorts in modern humanity - but they are very much thinking - as per Mr. Hitchens :

  #956  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:19
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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But we have moved on from the 1888 views, haven't we? While this "advice" is still legal (that is, the law hasn't been nullified, like many other obscure and crazy laws), I haven't heard anyone circumcising their boy or hurting a girl's clit to prevent future masturbation.

Seeing how societies are fluid, Minnesota had a "Merkel moment" of allowing a gazillion of Somali and other African immigrants to come and settle in the state (but not the idea of distributing them to other states). In any case these people have brought with them FGM practice which is creating a lot of problems. So, I suppose, that brings us back to 1888, and have to start (again) reeducating those who had no opportunity for education in their old homelands.
As a native Minnesotan, I don't recall the gazillion (which we all know is 1x10^WTF?) of immigrants coming into the Twin Cities or hearing about "a lot" of problems from family and friends that still live there.

Any influx of immigrants will bring new challenges. The Finlanders, Germans and Swedes sure screwed over the Chippewa and Sioux. But it's not 1888 and we don't have any more room on the reservations up Bemidji way regardless. The Hmong are sure happy about that.

I do agree that education and enforcement of the current laws are required as is the expectation that they be followed. Or is there some greater level of control you wish to advocate?
  #957  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:30
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Which differs from male circumcision how ???

Nonsense - Christianity for one is Abrahamic and has no such commandment for cutting children. And as I have demonstrated above Judaism has moved on albeit more slowly as well. Saying that you think that a certain evolution of human thought as a whole is progressive without swallowing the entire thing is entirely correct - to take an extreme example should we stop building autobahns because the Nazis came up with them ???
Do you understand the role of circumcision in those respective religions? Christianity clearly talks about a non physical type of circumcision.

So banning it is quite a different measure from making it optional. It already is optional. So what's the problem? You'd like to prevent some from practicing their religion?
  #958  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:38
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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So what's the problem? You'd like to prevent some from practicing their religion?
There are people whose religion it is to kill me. So if you don't get the limited nature of religious freedom in a democracy, I do.
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Old 11.10.2015, 12:58
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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There are people whose religion it is to kill me. So if you don't get the limited nature of religious freedom in a democracy, I do.
Sorry to hear that. But so far in western democracy, religion cannot trample on your inalienable right to live. Lets hope it stays that way. No guarantees, but you'll really have to stay vigil about that.

I'm not really talking about the supremacy of religious interpretation. i'm talking more about the supremacy of trending sentiments. Do you really want to contest a people's right to practice their religion? Do you really want to work towards eroding that religion? I think at that point, its not really about tolerance and coexistance. It may be about you and them challenging each other's existence, which at that point, I would probably say I'm out of that one and its between you and them.
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Old 11.10.2015, 13:03
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Do you really want to contest a people's right to practice their religion?
This is not the question. The question is how to guarantee rights when they are conflicting in a given situation applying to a sub-group of society. Huge difference. And calling a human right (body integrity) a "trending sentiment" does not do any good to your argumentation.

You can't make it an all or nothing situation because it isn't one. I do understand that all or nothing is easier to grasp conceptually, but life is not alway about "easy".
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