Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > General off-topic
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 31.12.2013, 00:46
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

I said it in a nice way too, MusicChik is perfectly able to make valid and intelligent reflections on linguistics on her own and that interests me too.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 31.12.2013, 00:48
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,719
Groaned at 88 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 11,212 Times in 5,569 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

Quote:
View Post
Why would you want to wait for me?
Coz you good linguistic debate sparing partner! Fun. Sorry I called you out, I totally meant it. I have been mulling over some border issues, linguistic probably, but more ethical/phil and anthropological, I need to finish a hat though at the mo, a few more rows to knit.. I will organize my thoughts a bit more linearly first, since they normally aren't. Happy holidays!

Another thing I will put in here will be intuition in comm, it's again a border issue, more pragm ling/psy, FrankZappa had some good thoughts on it, hope he is doing well.. xo
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H.Pestalozzi

Last edited by MusicChick; 31.12.2013 at 01:35.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 28.01.2014, 11:30
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,719
Groaned at 88 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 11,212 Times in 5,569 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

Hmm...I am still dealing with intuition in language production and language production assessment, it is interesting. Evaluating evaluation models, it's too bad I found a lot of resources for foreign language assessment, in ESL especially, but it's not so easy to track down assessment for advanced L1 acquisition, from pragm linguistics point of view, not PSY. Where are my ling buddies? I need to get hold of somebody evaluating SATs.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 28.01.2014, 18:31
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

It depends what you need... I deal with mother tongue and bilinguals, so it's perhaps somehow different.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 29.01.2014, 21:36
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,719
Groaned at 88 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 11,212 Times in 5,569 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

Quote:
View Post
It depends what you need... I deal with mother tongue and bilinguals, so it's perhaps somehow different.
Both, L1 and L2. Do you make your own grilles d'evaluation? How detailed is it? Can you share? (Privately).I have didactic sources from two HEPs, LS and Neuch, but it's so fragmented. Not a nice detailed methodology manual, practical didactics. Theory on assessment has been here for ever, Bloom etc., but I'd like something recent.

Last edited by MusicChick; 29.01.2014 at 21:54.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 29.01.2014, 22:19
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

Roughly, I work with competence areas, a grade line for each area and a summing up system that requires an artistic kind of maths. Define the skills you want to evaluate for each type of assessment and list up what evidence you expect to find for a start. But the more precise your chart is, the more contradictions you will find in real life grading. Give yourself some space for flexibility, even if it appears random to people exterior to the teaching profession.

The grading charts get more and more holistic, less and less specific to small areas of competence. Otherwise, it goes all over the place. The tendency both in Swiss, German and international teaching is to keep explicit skill expectations, but simplify the details. We are approaching again what we used to do in the eighties with only one holostic grade with subcompoments that are not subdevided in points.

If you could get hold on IBO doc, that would be the most explicit anglosaxon modell of it. In Swiss and German system, we kind of cut the discussion short a bit earlier... even if the basic ideas are the same. Write to the IBO, they might cooperate.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.

Last edited by Faltrad; 29.01.2014 at 22:34.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 29.01.2014, 22:34
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,719
Groaned at 88 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 11,212 Times in 5,569 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

Thanks! I agree with more exact - less versatile. I wonder where objectivity gets endangered. That's the pragmatic bit, intuition is marvellous. I come from a system with less clinical grading, but here it is mastered to minute detail. It's a bit mechanical, and a bit of student's uniqueness gets lost, if applied too rigidly, but just simple grades or points are worse. The scales tables with well defined rubrics driven by objectives are fascinating. Practical, fast, easy to be recycled when giving feedback. They do seem like a patient checklist, though. Academist. IB is a good idea.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H.Pestalozzi
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 29.01.2014, 22:42
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

It's the end of this clinical period.The more they describe the expected evidence for each level of grading, the more they are confronted with inconsistent evidence that makes grading impossible. If you have a long lost of pints to check, you end up with crosses all over the place and end up being forced to make an overall judgement anyway. Too many details in the checking list leads to contradictions, not more objective data.

The necessity of professional intuition is the same independently of the level of clinical details of expected evidence for whatever you want to evaluate. Make the test: grade on a simple holistic skale first, then look at the details of your criteria or lists of checking points. The result is the same, just quicker. Furthermore, the details one puts in the rubrics are not neutral abjective at all because evaluation is by definition a judgement of valie, hence no chance to quantify anything independently of valie jusgement. Quality questions come first, quantity second. Objectivity would be the other way around, see Hume.

Nowadays, we might look in essays at:
- language use: rich with errors, quite correct, generally correct or mostely correct
- quality of the argumentation: insufficient, satisfactory, good or excellent
- understanding of literary features: modest, partial, good, excellent
Rhen, you make you own weighting of use the official weighting of the system you work in and brew a total grade using some professional judgement, intuition in your own terms, to get a coherent hierarchy within the class set you have to grade.

It used to be more descriptive, more detailed as to what was expected to be seen for each area, but it was frankly speaking useless.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.

Last edited by Faltrad; 29.01.2014 at 23:56.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 29.01.2014, 23:03
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,719
Groaned at 88 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 11,212 Times in 5,569 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

Overly descriptive rubrics in scales I think also contribute to robotic assessment. It tends to happen when one expects memorized performance, not independent thinking. If one expect students to fall into categories, they will. But, I think the motives also are - you create the objectives and serve the best expected category as a checklist to give to students as a pre exam prep (simplified). So the best grade levels in different fields/competences are well thought out, the rest going down is simply just a negation of the best, scaled. I see the practicality, but don't really think it corresponds to human performance. A bit of a short cut. Maybe if cogn processes get pulled in more, but then, is it just to discriminate those in a lower stage of Piaget dvlpmnt hierarchy, only because majority of population (monolingual!) is expected higher..the kid can suck at grammar, can pull off sophisticated analysis when interpreting and be an ortographic antitalent (rebels I like, you might, too, as a phil teacher). Hmmm...
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H.Pestalozzi
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 29.01.2014, 23:12
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,719
Groaned at 88 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 11,212 Times in 5,569 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

Excellent, danke! We are writing at the same time, it's fun to bounce off eachother's ideas without seeing them posted yet. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

(Are you typing on a touch screen?)
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 29.01.2014, 23:13
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

Yea, I tend to grade down students who have nothing else to say than what I told them in class. I tell them "Don't tell me that, I was in class too, I know that.... what do YOU have to teach me" - it is no full proof method, to be honnest. But that's off topic....

I like the continental idea that the criterias are not setin stone. The teacher is responsible for defining the objectives. In an essay, I might have the three criteria above or others, included "knowledge of the philosophers", "independent thinking and argument" or "organization of argument". The IBO, if my memory is correct, gives the criteria for each type of task and there is no adaptation possible. Shame, but it also protects from crasy teachers or very normative national systems. Fair enough.

EDIT: yea, IPad internet only at the moment. More practice needed, I admit.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 29.01.2014, 23:30
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,719
Groaned at 88 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 11,212 Times in 5,569 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

I figured, don't apologize. My typos are an eyesore sometimes. But better good thoughts whatever package they come in than BS spelled perfectly . We are in off hours. And it's a good anti-pedantic medicine..

I have a feeling, edu system that doesn't trust teacher's assessment and lecture delivery will prescribe not only detailed curriculum but also detailed scales with ott rubrics. Considering teachers as a mere vehicle. They often do not dare to be more in this setup. I am confident to do the assessment on the spot, taking all criteria and students own scale, but contrary what that system would try to tell me about subjectivity, it feels more objective. At the same time, I am not a user of norm-referenced tests, either. Check out glossary.org. you will laugh.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H.Pestalozzi

Last edited by MusicChick; 30.01.2014 at 17:59.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 29.01.2014, 23:34
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,719
Groaned at 88 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 11,212 Times in 5,569 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

I gotta crash, my head is too excited.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 29.01.2014, 23:41
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

Don't say or spell norm-referenced tests in my presence. Makes me rrrrrrrgghh. As you said, in advanced language classes, philosophy or literature, it is an illusion to try to isolate analytically the trait to be measured. It's too intricated and not seccable like that. This is also the reason why criterion based assessment is equally useless if the criteria do nothing else than arbitrary listing up traits in the same way the norm-referenced charts do.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 30.01.2014, 14:46
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,719
Groaned at 88 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 11,212 Times in 5,569 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

I wonder if rubrics and categories give an impression of measuring something by nature not quantifiable..It's a crutch. But we can always show them and say yes, we have taught what was asked to be taught? Since we logged it in a neat chart? It's an illusion. I will still have to defend and write a major chapter on advantages, I do see the point. Since all teaching, if you expect a creative outcome, is unmeasurable. Creativity, speed, intuitive task execution, etc..I gotta get some sources on creative task assessment. It's such a cheese, though. How many ways can a stereotypical class be imaginative and innovative?
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H.Pestalozzi

Last edited by MusicChick; 30.01.2014 at 17:58.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 04.05.2014, 23:16
amaraya's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: lausanne
Posts: 2,237
Groaned at 20 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 2,845 Times in 1,204 Posts
amaraya has a reputation beyond reputeamaraya has a reputation beyond reputeamaraya has a reputation beyond reputeamaraya has a reputation beyond reputeamaraya has a reputation beyond reputeamaraya has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

for those of you in the lausanne area- a film on noam chomsky.
playing in pully- city theatre.

Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 05.05.2014, 00:14
Sky's Avatar
Sky Sky is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere special far away
Posts: 3,744
Groaned at 43 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 5,305 Times in 2,086 Posts
Sky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

He was in Geneva last year too
http://www.unige.ch/communication/ar...3/chomsky.html
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 06.05.2014, 00:37
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,719
Groaned at 88 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 11,212 Times in 5,569 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

That movie looks fab, gotta find it somewhere.

I have been thinking in the meantime about how close we get to assess language developement, as an organic process, through the biological glasses. Biolinguistics and Human Capacity is what I am going to print out for my train ride to teach, woohoo..awesomness.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 31.05.2014, 18:33
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,719
Groaned at 88 Times in 71 Posts
Thanked 11,212 Times in 5,569 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

So, probably everyone I know dislikes this Smile Therapy concept, including me. Nonetheless, I probably smile 99% when I am not busy with evil eye throwing, etc. I smile especially when nervous, funily enough. I wonder what that communicates, thinking about it.

Anyways, I have been digging around some interesting bits and pieces in a couple of books, looking for views on semiotic cues of certain gestures we associate with communication. What came to me as a surprise, smiling is deeply ingrained, so automatic and almost a reflex more than a conscious gesture. We do this since we are born and it is pushed by the way we adopt communication skills, we most probably register the effects it has on those we communicate with. Interesting is, that is is not the pretty visuals that affect the way we get interpreted. The lift of the corners of our mouths actually raises the tone the voice that is perceived and interpreted as more open, less dominant, more approachable (I think it is linked to kids more than stereotypes of women and their range of voice). Interesting. So..not a visual cue solely, actually, but aural. Hmmmm. I might revise my smile therapy antipathy.



I should dig around some more...the patterns of mixed messages, etc.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H.Pestalozzi

Last edited by MusicChick; 31.05.2014 at 22:10.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 31.05.2014, 19:40
Sky's Avatar
Sky Sky is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somewhere special far away
Posts: 3,744
Groaned at 43 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 5,305 Times in 2,086 Posts
Sky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond reputeSky has a reputation beyond repute
Re: On Linguistics

Tis an innate part of our peaceweaving.... to smile, bring warmth and comfort
And reassure.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New to Lausanne - Searching for a French linguistics teacher! MNice22 Introductions 2 18.02.2013 23:15
10 % off on all iPads just today on InterDiscount jamjelly TV/internet/telephone 6 19.12.2012 10:15
Laws on finding treasure on farmland or state land. Express999 Daily life 9 03.10.2012 23:25
Aprils fools on June 1st ( snow on the Jura !?! ) grynch Daily life 3 01.06.2011 10:01
How to earn a living in Geneva with an MA (Applied Linguistics) and 5ys teaching exp? fl0werstar Employment 7 18.10.2010 18:09


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0