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  #81  
Old 31.05.2014, 19:43
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Re: On Linguistics

And inveigle.
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Old 31.05.2014, 21:07
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Re: On Linguistics

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And inveigle.
Comes from Old French: aveugler
In the sense of coax, lure or manipulate with artful sweetness

....was speaking of peaceweavers, not sirens.
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Old 31.05.2014, 22:17
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Re: On Linguistics

I think while both genuine and pushed smile will affect the tone range similarly, only genuinely smile will work in certain situations, don't we all filter it well.. Kids might not. But then, their intuition works well too, and they might fight it less than we do.

Insincere smile has a different semiotic value, me thinks. It's a grimace.
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Old 13.06.2014, 17:17
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Re: On Linguistics

Collective nouns are interesting..thinking of them made me shift to collective contents of knowledge, packages if you wish, that are sometimes seen as culture. It's very fluid, mobile. We should like fashion, street cred, it makes the transfer stream faster..if we were able to not judge quality the way we do. I am not really sure if lack of judgment tags in esthetics serves the purpose of culture, it will always be there, though..intuitively. Language is a vehicle.

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Old 13.06.2014, 22:44
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Re: On Linguistics

Random references relating to recent posts in this thread, in case you're interested:

1) Paul Ekman about distinctions between real and forced smiles, and many other distinctions in facial expressions, and their import;

2) Eve Sweetser about semantic spaces, pragmatics, bodily gesture, culture, language change.
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Old 15.06.2014, 09:48
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Re: On Linguistics

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Random references relating to recent posts in this thread, in case you're interested:

1) Paul Ekman about distinctions between real and forced smiles, and many other distinctions in facial expressions, and their import;

2) Eve Sweetser about semantic spaces, pragmatics, bodily gesture, culture, language change.
Yeah, this is cool. I think I've seen them quoted somewhere in books I munched through, it's fascinating what we do when we communicate, I will check them out. I am still intrigued by culturally embedded notions of genuine communication, honesty, sincerity..verbal and non verbal cues, it's fab.
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Old 04.07.2014, 14:18
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Re: On Linguistics

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Old 04.07.2014, 18:14
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Re: On Linguistics

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Same here!

On this, see Roy Baumeister,
but also Carol Dweck for a cautionary note.
You may need to use a university library.
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Old 04.07.2014, 18:33
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Re: On Linguistics

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Same here!

On this, see Roy Baumeister,
but also Carol Dweck for a cautionary note.
You may need to use a university library.

I love Pragmatic Linguistics, hahahahah.. I got into that thanks to Bolinger, what a guru. The future of anything lies into PSY mixed with whatever we need. The rules of perceptions and processing info, etc. Lovely. Then one takes in account of sociology, which is basically PSY in larger scale (sorry for being so...sauvage). I live in uni libraries in my alternate life. It's great here since I am outsourcing stuff that rarelly gets checked out.

I downloaded Ego Depletion, that's really interesting, thanks. I am dealing with volition in assessment, pedagogical decision making, the role of intuition in pedagogical evaluation, it's keeping me occupied. Where is the line between a good gut feeling and too much automation gained really mechanically, by routine..? We all create our own matrixes, it's not always good, if they petrify our moves, limit our scope of choices.

Dweck looks great, too.

Btw, I don't really get influenced by food or sleep deprivation, to be honest. But know some folks who change into somebody else, if they do not sleep or eat enough, or if they do not have a minute in solitude, get over stimulated. It's interesting. I actually forget to eat or sleep, easily, especially if I have to. And am somewhat always hungry for stimulation. Alas, I am gonna go and have a banana.
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  #90  
Old 27.07.2014, 08:50
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Re: On Linguistics

Do you like being in a place where you do not speak the language? Is it exciting to travel to places where you just watch people or you attempt immediately, try out those few words..communicate, ask little things, directions. It's exciting. I know not knowing the local language often prevents people from traveling, not trying to get out of their comfort zone..the language bit of mobility always fascinated me.

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Old 27.07.2014, 12:17
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Re: On Linguistics

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Do you like being in a place where you do not speak the language? Is it exciting to travel to places where you just watch people of you attempt immediately, try out those few words..communicate, ask little things, directions. It's exciting. I know not knowing the local language often prevents people from traveling, not trying to get out of their comfort zone..the language bit of mobility always fascinated me.
It fascinates me, too. I've always valued learning languages, and think language learning is important for the world because we should prioritise communicating and appreciation of/giving to others. We should want to keep a variety of languages and dialects. The mentality of people who move to places and don't learn the local languages is alien to me, and contributes to negative stereotyping. I wonder why a parent would set the example to their kids, that one needn't bother to integrate or familiarise oneself with local linguistic and cultural norms.

In light of:
  • you must always be learning any language well, regardless of mother tongue or foreign language
  • you lose your ability to command a language, when you do not use it regularly and well
It's interesting to think about what having a command of a language means. In terms of just the speaking part:
  • Some people think it's being able to order a drink in a bar.
  • Some people think it's being able to have a predictable short conversation.
  • Some people think it's being able to have any conversation at all.
Some people think it can't just be a measure of speaking ability, but must also include writing, listening, hearing, reading and comprehension ability.

Some people think it's an exam grade reflecting those competencies, regardless of how relevant to current ability.

Some people assume native speakers all use a language perfectly, and don't see variants in ability or structure, and/or don't see the quality variance in dialects (US dialect English is a good example of this, because so many people learn it thinking it must be a good model to use since it's all they know from Hollywood films).
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Old 27.07.2014, 12:24
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Re: On Linguistics

I was just on Icelandair. Very cool views of volcanos and glaciers, but also Icelandic language lessons printed on the anti-macassars of every seat. And no need to buy a book of sudokus or anything because you could sit and see how much grammar and morphology of Icelandic you can figure out by looking at the menu. My son said he felt like he could almost understand the broadcast announcements (but couldn't). We wondered if it was because for a year we shared childcare with a family from Iceland with a similar-aged baby (20 hrs at their house, 20 hrs at our house).
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Old 27.07.2014, 13:10
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Re: On Linguistics

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And inveigle.
A new one for me- will have to look it up.
In English I like the old French word 'reconnoitre' which has long disappeared from French (to go on a fact finding (war) mission).
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  #94  
Old 27.07.2014, 13:37
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Re: On Linguistics

I'm in the UK right now, and I was struck by how odd it seemed to be surrounded by people speaking English. I had to check myself a few times - as I opened my mouth, German almost popped out.
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  #95  
Old 29.07.2014, 11:09
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Re: On Linguistics

Some really interesting and really thoughtful points to consider, lovely contributions..

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  • you must always be learning any language well, regardless of mother tongue or foreign language
  • you lose your ability to command a language, when you do not use it regularly and well
I agree, especially about intentions. The urge to learn a language well, is a bit hard to quantify, though. Especially knowing there are people who will find learning a language difficult. I think having a good intention to communicate is already an achievement. The rest will pan out.


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It's interesting to think about what having a command of a language means. In terms of just the speaking part:
  • Some people think it's being able to order a drink in a bar.
  • Some people think it's being able to have a predictable short conversation.
  • Some people think it's being able to have any conversation at all.
I think it again depends on their language learning strategy and potential, which is somewhat defined by two things, in my experience, their own learning type (hemisphere that works for them, skills they find easier to start with), and motivation which is largely depending on efficiency of their experience with language learning they have done already. If people are more speaking focused because it works for them and manage to communicate efficiently, why base their language acquisition assessment on written skills (I am not talking formal language learning). As long as they convey what they want. I do know however that equally developed receptive and productive skills do have impact on the over all performance.



Troubles start when people consider themselves knowing enough and do not realize their communicative competences might still be limited by how little in fact they know but still would consider themselves fluent.



Being critical to one's own acquired knowledge in order to want more, feeding that hunger for knowing intrinsically, is essential for the quality of our knowledge, it applies to languages too..language always having that extra importance of being the meta instrument of other learning. Being critical to how little we know and want to know more, though, needs us to let ourselves be receptively compared with others, critically. Changing cultures and environments, languages we use, is a really efficient and fast means for this. Or good schools.


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I was just on Icelandair. Very cool views of volcanos and glaciers, but also Icelandic language lessons printed on the anti-macassars of every seat. And no need to buy a book of sudokus or anything because you could sit and see how much grammar and morphology of Icelandic you can figure out by looking at the menu. My son said he felt like he could almost understand the broadcast announcements (but couldn't). We wondered if it was because for a year we shared childcare with a family from Iceland with a similar-aged baby (20 hrs at their house, 20 hrs at our house).
He might have had, though, understood. Kids soak up so much, without wasting time we do cathegorizing and classifying to make for our stiff brains absorb. And, without wasting time to figure out how to let us know they know.

Island is one of the places I would opt for living. It is interesting how we all get drawn to certain places that appeal to us.

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I'm in the UK right now, and I was struck by how odd it seemed to be surrounded by people speaking English. I had to check myself a few times - as I opened my mouth, German almost popped out.
I have had that happen, in the wrong time, wrong place, wrong language..the adjustment is usually quick, but it is definitely true that if French or English, German comes out in a wrong setting, it is still ok, rather funny, especailly the French R will make people laugh, or their nasals, it is identifiable for the addressee. But home Ř makes people raise their eybrows, so do groups of consonants, strč, etc. Sounds more like I have gone mad.
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Old 29.07.2014, 11:56
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Re: On Linguistics

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I agree, especially about intentions. The urge to learn a language well, is a bit hard to quantify, though. Especially knowing there are people who will find learning a language difficult. I think having a good intention to communicate is already an achievement. The rest will pan out.
It is hard to recognise good examples/models to follow, when we're programmed to think those with the language as mother tongue are automatically good models. I have language exchange sessions with people, which have become even more defined, as I've realised a person has a weakness in writing or speaking or comprehension etc etc. I try to focus the language exchange on playing to their strength only, so I don't pick up bad habits from their weakness.

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I think it again depends on their language learning strategy and potential, which is somewhat defined by two things, in my experience, their own learning type (hemisphere that works for them, skills they find easier to start with), and motivation which is largely depending on efficiency of their experience with language learning they have done already. If people are more speaking focused because it works for them and manage to communicate efficiently, why base their language acquisition assessment on written skills (I am not talking formal language learning). As long as they convey what they want. I do know however that equally developed receptive and productive skills do have impact on the over all performance.
I think people who don't willingly learn languages are inclined to only recognise 2 levels of ability and both related only to speaking - can you speak the language or not?

On the back of that, I think they see language learning as finite.

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Troubles start when people consider themselves knowing enough and do not realize their communicative competences might still limited by how little in fact they know but still would consider themselves fluent.
This relates to some things I am mentioning above. I personally don't believe in the idea of fluency in any language.

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Being critical to one's own acquired knowledge in order to want more, feeding that hunger for knowing intrinsically, is essential for the quality of our knowledge, it applies to languages too..language always having that extra importance of being the meta instrument of other learning. Being critical to how little we know and want to know more, though, needs us to let ourselves be receptively compared with others, critically. Changing cultures and environments, languages we use, is a really efficient and fast means for this. Or good schools.
1 of the great shames to me is the prevalence of American buzzwords/phrases. In my experience, they are loved by those who cannot articulate themselves well with existing words, and wouldn't be able to explain the buzzword/phrase, despite using it.
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Old 29.07.2014, 14:02
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Re: On Linguistics

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It is hard to recognise good examples/models to follow, when we're programmed to think those with the language as mother tongue are automatically good models. I have language exchange sessions with people, which have become even more defined, as I've realised a person has a weakness in writing or speaking or comprehension etc etc. I try to focus the language exchange on playing to their strength only, so I don't pick up bad habits from their weakness.
You apply one of the successful learner strategies, I think it is not so uncommon, it should be more. I doubt learners atomatically consider a native speaker a master of their mother tongue. But like the idea of native speakers being aware of maybe being copied as role models, that's neat..

Competence and skill are never ending. Instruments can be mastered, but products are infinite. If language learning is finite, than the content of human mind should be finite, too, it is as repetitive as language can be..what if some people consider language learning finite because their minds long for finite amount of the product of their cognition. Maybe it hurts to go overboard, cerebrally. Relying on intuition does not hurt. Reorienting oneself to intuitive language use is less pain, too, than cramming rules cognitively. It might be judged as innaccurate, I like it, though, coins a lot of original thought.

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1 of the great shames to me is the prevalence of American buzzwords/phrases. In my experience, they are loved by those who cannot articulate themselves well with existing words, and wouldn't be able to explain the buzzword/phrase, despite using it.
I like the kitch of hip words, not necessarily buzz words. Every language has them, UK English as well, US slang is just probably irritating because it is so hip. I like the corniness of them. It is entertaining.

What would be the hip word of today...help me. In French all is suddenly hyper. So annoying. Elle est hyper belle. Not sure what hipster term would be now in, in US or UK English. I don't know if trying to catch people on not being exactly sure what certain hip terms mean, that can be done in any register. Buzz word, scientific, you name it. Even precisely set and defined terminology is often so subjectively used.
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Old 29.07.2014, 14:23
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Re: On Linguistics

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I like the kitch of hip words, not necessarily buzz words. Every language has them, UK English as well, US slang is just probably irritating because it is so hip. I like the corniness of them. It is entertaining.

What would be the hip word of today...help me. In French all is suddenly hyper. So annoying. Elle est hyper belle. Not sure what hipster term would be now in, in US or UK English. I don't know if trying to catch people on not being exactly sure what certain hip terms mean, that can be done in any register. Buzz word, scientific, you name it. Even precisely set and defined terminology is often so subjectively used.
Slang is something else. Slang helps to evolve language sometimes. Buzzwords/phrases are things like "think outside the box, "motivate your answer", "create a meeting in a box", "put your ducks in a row".
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Old 29.07.2014, 14:28
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Re: On Linguistics

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Slang is something else. Slang helps to evolve language sometimes. Buzzwords/phrases are things like "think outside the box, "motivate your answer", "create a meeting in a box", "put your ducks in a row".
I know I know. But that is corporate speak, a professional slang, if you wish. That's made to appeal, to sell, impress, or fake competence, to seem bigger than one is (aside of the original intent to simplify business dealings by using specific terminology, like other professional slangs). I guess it is expected there will be people not fully understanding, or using those words wrong. I have my own word pet hates, it's fun to notice. What's your most disliked corporate speak term?


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Old 29.07.2014, 15:15
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Re: On Linguistics

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I know I know. But that is corporate speak, a professional slang, if you wish. That's made to apeal, to sell, impress, or fake competence, to seem bigger than one is (aside of the original intent to simplify business dealings by using specific terminology, like other professional slangs). I guess it is expected there will be people not fully understanding, or using those words wrong. I have my own word pet hates, it's fun to notice. What's your most disliked corporate speak term?

Today's pet hates are "action" being misused and "text" having been invented. For example "can you action the document?". For example "I texted him".

Seconds ago, I heard the following at the end of someone's meeting "so are we all in the lifeboat?". I'm not sure what it means, and I also hate the misuse of "so" at the start of anything generally.
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