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  #101  
Old 29.07.2014, 16:01
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Re: On Linguistics

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I also hate the misuse of "so" at the start of anything generally.
That isn't misuse. It's another function of the word.

We could bring back Hwaet! instead, if you like.
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  #102  
Old 29.07.2014, 16:08
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Re: On Linguistics

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Today's pet hates are "action" being misused and "text" having been invented. For example "can you action the document?". For example "I texted him".

Seconds ago, I heard the following at the end of someone's meeting "so are we all in the lifeboat?". I'm not sure what it means, and I also hate the misuse of "so" at the start of anything generally.
Meh. Have some fun instead of moaning about it...
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  #103  
Old 29.07.2014, 16:35
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Re: On Linguistics

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Meh. Have some fun instead of moaning about it...
Why is it moaning? I'm posting about something in the relevant thread, and answering questions about the topics. Isn't that considered explaining, rather than moaning?
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  #104  
Old 29.07.2014, 16:40
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Re: On Linguistics

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Why is it moaning? I'm posting about something in the relevant thread, and answering questions about the topics. Isn't that considered explaining, rather than moaning?
I nearly changed my post, but couldn't be bothered.

"Meh. Have some fun instead of getting annoyed about it..."

Happier?
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  #105  
Old 31.07.2014, 08:48
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Re: On Linguistics

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Today's pet hates are "action" being misused and "text" having been invented. For example "can you action the document?". For example "I texted him".

Seconds ago, I heard the following at the end of someone's meeting "so are we all in the lifeboat?". I'm not sure what it means, and I also hate the misuse of "so" at the start of anything generally.
What does actioning the document even mean, processing it? Distributing? It irritates, I wonder if this is frequent enough we will have the term legitimately actioned. Texting as a verb you mean? It is already so widely used and accepted, it's logical to me, even when texting actually means a massacre to syntax, spelling, omitting vowels..still, it conveys a message, in linguistics every utterance (written or spoken) is a text even if we do not like the structure or rules it's been constructed with..

The corporate speak bingo I have seen around, it made me laugh..I think we are all to some extent influenced by our professional lives, though, not saying all to the pretentious level, but I think professional slang is hard to delete even when we are in a different setting. PSY or medical terms at dinner table debates, chemistry terms when talking about cooking made me laugh before, political mumbo jumbo when talking about kid group dynamics can be entertaining..I studied mom language changes, even people what we see as out of pofessional setting, will adjust their language. Diminutives, special baby talk used for grown ups, words that only exist for babies, poo-poo, interjections working as verbs, etc. Watch out, parents! I am kidding, but it is true it has been studied as a linguistic phenomenon.

I think I am more adverse to hip media terms, trendy words used in mags and blogs, biz webpages in order to sell. Cute words with an affective overkill, appealing to certain group of consumers, MTV reality shows, to get people hooked. US radio shows make great fun of trendy terms, comedians, too..
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  #106  
Old 31.07.2014, 08:49
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Re: On Linguistics

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  #107  
Old 31.07.2014, 09:03
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Re: On Linguistics

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  #108  
Old 31.07.2014, 09:27
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Re: On Linguistics

MC have you been following the Richard Dawkins headlines in recent days about his explanation of “X is bad. Y is worse. If you think that’s an endorsement of X, go away and don’t come back until you’ve learned how to think properly.”? If not, you may be interested to have a look at the fallout in light of the examples he chose to illustrate that logic, and his latest response to those who criticised him (the latter is here https://richarddawkins.net/2014/07/a...show-its-face/).

He used examples like:
“Date rape is bad. Stranger rape at knifepoint is worse. If you think that’s an endorsement of date rape, go away and learn how to think.”

"Mild paedophilia is bad. Violent paedophilia is worse. If you think that's an endorsement of mild paedophilia, go away and learn how to think."

“Being raped by a stranger is bad. Being raped by a formerly trusted friend is worse.” If you think that hypothetical quotation is an endorsement of rape by strangers, go away and learn how to think."
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  #109  
Old 31.07.2014, 14:05
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Re: On Linguistics

The "go away" bit made me laugh, it's funny...He describes a manipulative maneuvre, innit. Growing in popularity. The anti endorsement disclaimers that one has to do to make a point are tiring. I don't think people do not know how to think or their minds would be so binary. It just looks like a convenient shortcut, special type of pollution stemming from persuasive political rhetorics. It's all over. I will check Dawkins out.
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  #110  
Old 01.08.2014, 10:11
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Re: On Linguistics

I think so far what I have read, I agree with Dawkins. Not really sure if I'd support his ideas that are identical to mine from his atheist point, he seems a bit too...ott. Unnecessarily confrontational, losing possible support from people who are in between. I understand him completely and think he from his biology sci point cannot really think otherwise. He could tone down his rhetorics, he would gain a lot more support. But being strategic would go against some of his principles, so I get that too. Lovely. Refreshing. My family accept him completely. I agree on most, have a bit of a grape with his delivery and using religion as a scape goat, when it is people trait, not necessarily religion to flame. It's a vehicle, shooting a vehicle is not addressing why people need to use is and abuse it in their shortcut arguments.
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  #111  
Old 04.08.2014, 20:37
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Re: On Linguistics

He made me think about the presented opposition, it is apparent in his work, of rational logic and emotional. I do not think those are anti poles. Nor are rational and religious. Plus, according to the research I have read and done, judgment, assessment - are often done well based on both rational and emotional processing. And better than using just one of the type. Most assessment we do, even what was previously considered a pure volition process is according to some recent stuff I have read, based mainly on intuition, subconsciously, and not based on logical, conscious, procedural analysis, an algorhythm he is calling for, void of emotions, since he perceives them negatively. I do understand the point of his campaign though, also the types of examples he used, I think he wanted to make people aware. Consciousness raising is pedagogical. He is accused of being self serving and attention seeking, egotistic, but I think he is being prophetic, educational and preventative. Which considering how much flak he is getting, is the opposite of egotistic. I recognize the instructional part of his work. People want him to use a different rhetorics and vocabulary, I do not think it would fit his purpose. And would take longer. I think it is more bias of the public knowing he is taking a view of a biologist that they are reading too much into. Fab, correct debate after each article, though, great moderator job.
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  #112  
Old 05.08.2014, 00:55
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Re: On Linguistics

I find the current furore curious to watch from the sidelines. I think part of the problem is people responding to soundbites taken out of context. A career in television doesn't really give you the time or control to convey your ideas and questions. Producers and the feeding machine behind such methods as TV and newspapers are always looking for the short-term money shot, and we're lazy consumers, investing nothing of merit into appreciating the germination - we want to know where we're going, and we want to know it now.
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  #113  
Old 05.08.2014, 12:50
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Re: On Linguistics

The maneuvres he orchestrates are indeed interesting. He pokes just to watch it afterwards on the side lines, because the debate that evolves is more likely going to be more quality than if he actually participated. Hence the Tweet use and then retreat into a deeper platform. I think he is getting inspired from the storms he instigates. The shock maneuvre ensures a response calibre worthy of the actual topic. The guys giving him either thumbs up or criticism on his site are providing more of a mindfood, without his work that he would have to do. It is intelligent. As I said, it is done on purpose and instructionally, I gotta give it to him. I especially appreciate his critics that come from the atheist camp, as much as I appreciate his supporters from the religious camp. It is not stereotypical and these folks seem to do more of a leg work than your usual buddy seeing eye to eye with you.

What you said about our expectation of media discourse is also interesting. Germination can be quick, too, though, when you think about it, if you ask good questions. I am not anti certain media platform per se, since it can be used well, the potential is there, I learn a lot from some projects I saw on TV, long term and well docummented.

Thought-worthy might be a notion that the dependence of the public on instant answers albeit possibly wrong but immediate, really depends on the individual habit to ask and persistence in asking. I think one learns that in school, if that is missing it is hard to gravitate towards that later.

As per instant answers..time is obviously money, for your regular consumer. Is time more important than quality of answers, truth? Whose truth? What will be more objectively perceived, time or truth? Do we have to compromise on either? Are we taught to? Is a consumer prioritizing time to truth just a logical symptom of how his life is now being constructed and supported? Is a consumer merely reacting to spreading lack of for him tangible truth and relativisation that not that many can process without losing steady moral compass? I think criticising consumers compares to criticising babies liking candy. What is worth criticism is the lack of ability to keep asking questions, being easily manipulated into complacent conformism. Schools.

If relativisation is our future, what will ensure moral compass..some will opt for religion to nourish that need, it is very available. Schools, do they deliver? Legal system? Or insurance business?
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  #114  
Old 05.08.2014, 13:07
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Re: On Linguistics

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What you said about our expectation of media discourse is also interesting. Germination can be quick, too, though, when you think about it, if you ask good questions. I am not anti certain media platform per se, since it can be used well, the potential is there.
Replace twitter by (French word) pamphlets and TV by (French word) salons and you have European late 18th Century on religion and enlightment all over again.
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  #115  
Old 05.08.2014, 13:34
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Re: On Linguistics

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Replace twitter by (French word) pamphlets and TV by (French word) salons and you have European late 18th Century on religion and enlightment all over again.
I know it is a trait. Even reforming church a few centuries before that was probably done with the same desire and mechanism, just more discipline (less ego) and loyalty to dogma and pattern than in enlightement.

But then--tell somebody to create his own truth (since we all pretty much do, I wish I was more on Dawkins side). Are we ready for that amount of fuzz? Can our brains and hearts take it, if you do not rely on history giving us some documents to follow, respect, guidelines, back up..It seems to me human nature is to require it. Back to stats on ethics and Kohlberg. It might be outdated. But so far I agree with him.

I have gotten myself into some really interesting debates recently over the same issue, but anytime I asked sb to give me a definition of truth, in terms of ethics, they came with physics and tangible proofs only. Unquestionable reality, rationalism, logic, being measurable. What do we measure our moral compass with and the human need for it? I think I have a slight aversion to extreme materialism, but on the other hand things that depend on interpretation only are too fuzzy to instruct those who need clear instructions.. Extreme tangibility does not work with the desire of humans to attach themselves to ethical guidance, if there is anything to save us, I am not saying it is God, since I do not know. But the aspiration to act morally, which again is interpretation dependent.

Bible and other manuals are interesting. The attachment people show to them is teaching me a lot.
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  #116  
Old 05.08.2014, 17:16
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Re: On Linguistics

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Not sure if your French is up to it yet- but this reminds me of the lovely book 'La Grammaire est une chanson douce' by Erik Orsenna- where the actors are tribes made up of 'verbs' 'adjectives' 'adverbs'- etc.
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  #117  
Old 05.08.2014, 17:26
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Re: On Linguistics

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Not sure if your French is up to it yet- but this reminds me of the lovely book 'La Grammaire est une chanson douce' by Erik Orsenna- where the actors are tribes made up of 'verbs' 'adjectives' 'adverbs'- etc.
Ooh, looks like I can get it.
Thanks, Odile.

I will trade the tip with Bolinger, if you have a chance to get his Language the Loaded Weapon, you will like it. It's been written ages ago, but I enjoy his clarity, the oversight, simplicity...it's quite typical for US linguists writing well for the wide public. He covers ethics in language use and abuse, as well, it is interesting.
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  #118  
Old 05.08.2014, 18:06
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Re: On Linguistics

Thanks- looking forward to it. I've studied languages all my life- but never linguistics- and I really would like to learn more, now I have the time. Bolinger- doesn't he produce Champagne (or 'll' I think)
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  #119  
Old 05.08.2014, 18:57
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Re: On Linguistics

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Thanks- looking forward to it. I've studied languages all my life- but never linguistics- and I really would like to learn more, now I have the time. Bolinger- doesn't he produce Champagne (or 'll' I think)
Yes, French Bollinger makes Champagne. I bet that is also good.

Otherwise, people learning languages or teaching them, or both, usually appreciate linguistics and realize they know it all. I am sure you do, you will just be nicely reminded, in a catalogue way. I was cramming Bollinger for rhetorics and pragmatic linguistics, but he covers so much more, it is so exciting.
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  #120  
Old 05.08.2014, 19:01
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Re: On Linguistics

No, actually it is one of the joys of getting older- you realise more and more you do NOT know it all- and that there is so much to discover still.

As Nil's dad says, I love going to bed feeling just a little bit less stupid every night
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