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  #121  
Old 07.08.2014, 23:45
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Re: On Linguistics

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I have gotten myself into some really interesting debates recently over the same issue, but anytime I asked sb to give me a definition of truth, in terms of ethics, they came with physics and tangible proofs only. Unquestionable reality, rationalism, logic, being measurable. What do we measure our moral compass with and the human need for it? I think I have a slight aversion to extreme materialism, but on the other hand things that depend on interpretation only are too fuzzy to instruct those who need clear instructions.. Extreme tangibility does not work with the desire of humans to attach themselves to ethical guidance, if there is anything to save us, I am not saying it is God, since I do not know. But the aspiration to act morally, which again is interpretation dependent.
I think for the reasons I just posted on the other thread - a life needs both, and yet defining even balance for ourselves is difficult, before we even think about judging it in others.
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  #122  
Old 08.08.2014, 15:10
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Re: On Linguistics

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I think for the reasons I just posted on the other thread - a life needs both, and yet defining even balance for ourselves is difficult, before we even think about judging it in others.
That aspect of search for definition I get, people seek it. Definition, balance. It is more apparent if one uses comparisons, opposites, that's clear, too. I am not busy with judgment as a quality tag, though, differences simply fascinates me. Since I am dealing with assessment, evaluative processes, decision making, etc., the ability to adopt a new way, adapt according to situations and conditions changing..

What I wrote about rigor and drift, same shtick - why and when pick either, since I do not think we would be defined by using one principal stategy.

I feel there will be some kind of prediction push that will in fluence us, either to drift or apply already known and methodically. We function on biased estimates, trying to avoid errors..even when we want to be spontaneous, our brains are programmed. To escape that would be one reason I would defend drifting and protecting that intuitive way to process, decide, self-lessly, void of ego. It's a self survival strategy, just like rigorous methodical mechanical stats based processing....hmmmmm. I wonder what role do words/language play in intuition. I do not think they do. I like that. It blends with music, sensations. I have to observe little kids more, they are such lovely intuitive drifting masters. Rigor and patterns only show up when they need to practice something they intuitively know they need.
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  #123  
Old 08.08.2014, 23:23
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Re: On Linguistics

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That aspect of search for definition I get, people seek it. Definition, balance. It is more apparent if one uses comparisons, opposites, that's clear, too. I am not busy with judgment as a quality tag, though, differences simply fascinates me. Since I am dealing with assessment, evaluative processes, decision making, etc., the ability to adopt a new way, adapt according to situations and conditions changing..

What I wrote about rigor and drift, same shtick - why and when pick either, since I do not think we would be defined by using one principal stategy.

I feel there will be some kind of prediction push that will in fluence us, either to drift or apply already known and methodically. We function on biased estimates, trying to avoid errors..even when we want to be spontaneous, our brains are programmed. To escape that would be one reason I would defend drifting and protecting that intuitive way to process, decide, self-lessly, void of ego. It's is a self survival strategy, just like rigorous methodical mechanical stats based processing....hmmmmm. I wonder what role do words/language play in intuition. I do not think they do. I like that. It blends with music, sensations. I have to observe little kids more, they are such lovely intuitive drifting masters. Rigor and patterns only show up when they need to practice something they intuitively know they need.
It often depends upon whether one considers the outcome of their pick to be successful or not (which are also subjective). When we consider it to be successful, I'd imagine we are likely to use the same method more. All of this assumes we have any say in the option, of course. It could be that we are aware of different options, and think we have some control over them, but that we were always likely to follow the option we think we chose.
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  #124  
Old 09.08.2014, 13:17
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Re: On Linguistics

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It often depends upon whether one considers the outcome of their pick to be successful or not (which are also subjective). When we consider it to be successful, I'd imagine we are likely to use the same method more. All of this assumes we have any say in the option, of course. It could be that we are aware of different options, and think we have some control over them, but that we were always likely to follow the option we think we chose.
I am usually averse to manifestos, since they conserve patterns. I am going to like them today, my today's Special Little Manifesto is following:

Our idea of a successful strategy to process is based on our at least yesterday error prediction.

I am making myself laugh, language can be a potent instrument to trick ourselves into ignoring its restrictions (when ratio monopolizes). Tabula rasa, I think can be wiped cleaned again if we let ourselves. I am not an extremist, just know we too easily over-estimate and under-estimate. It is not bad to live in uncertainty. There might be a lot of surprises found in nonverbal processing.

I will sit in a garden this afternoon, soaking up smells of ripening peaches and other fruits, overlooking an amazing river valley and mountains, there will be a quiet chitchat from my former students and friends coming to me, I will notice it while being a bit out of everything..registering imprints of it all.
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  #125  
Old 09.08.2014, 15:08
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Re: On Linguistics

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I am usually averse to manifestos, since they conserve patters. I am going to like them today, my today's Special Little Manifesto is following:

Our idea of a successful strategy to process is based on our at least yesterday error prediction.

I am making myself laugh, language can be a potent instrument to trick ourselves into ignoring its restrictions (when ratio monopolizes). Tabula rasa, I think can be wiped cleaned again if we let ourselves. I am not an extremist, just know we too easily over-estimate and under-estimate. It is not bad to live in uncertainty. There might be a lot of surprises found in nonverbal processing.

I will sit in a garden this afternoon, soaking up smells of ripening peaches and other fruits, overlooking an amazing river valley and mountains, there will be a quiet chitchat from my former students and friends coming to me, I will notice it while being a bit out of everything..registering imprints of it all.
Your line about language trickery is spot-on! I think we are also arrogant about our linguistic ability - there's a common ignorance about the need to keep learning and bettering a language command and use, in order to improve articulation.

I agree with you about the potential for surprises in non-verbal processing. I'm fascinated by groups of people who spend periods of time in silence. I love the connections I feel to people just through intense eye contact or the touch of skin.
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  #126  
Old 10.08.2014, 21:38
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Re: On Linguistics

I think distance from the emotional entanglement and cultural norms can help sometimes. We see too many examples of people locked in cycles of domestic abuse - both the victims and the perpetrators. We see too many examples of violation of the bodily autonomy of kids under the premise "I'm legally allowed to make choices for this kid" - mutilation of the genitals (aka circumcision) and ear piercing being examples of this.
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  #127  
Old 11.08.2014, 20:02
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Re: On Linguistics

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Your line about language trickery is spot-on! I think we are also arrogant about our linguistic ability - there's a common ignorance about the need to keep learning and bettering a language command and use, in order to improve articulation.

I agree with you about the potential for surprises in non-verbal processing. I'm fascinated by groups of people who spend periods of time in silence. I love the connections I feel to people just through intense eye contact or the touch of skin.
That's really nice. I have been thinking about a friend of mine who always mentioned her taking a sabatical in a convent. To not be disturbed in her silence. I would like to try. Though for now will be happy picking up mushrooms in quiet mountains.

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I think distance from the emotional entanglement and cultural norms can help sometimes. We see too many examples of people locked in cycles of domestic abuse - both the victims and the perpetrators. We see too many examples of violation of the bodily autonomy of kids under the premise "I'm legally allowed to make choices for this kid" - mutilation of the genitals (aka circumcision) and ear piercing being examples of this.
To inspect patterns and how/if they serve us well is necessary for progress, me thinks. That is the way I try to teach kids to be responsible for their own learning, to learn to self monitor, self motivate. Especially to get rid of petrified ticks, mindless routines, automatic responses, unhealthy reflexes..One does not have to bring in dramatic consequences to illustrate it. Why do we learn? To get assured we have memorized something well long time ago, or to discover something new? Is what we learned long time ago still working, accurate and helpful? Is what is working necessarily good? Allowing others to change opinions and evolve is also as important as allowing oneself to do exactly that.

On that note, thinking we can or should get rid of the emotive part of decision making, gut feeling and intuition - is probably not possible. I like that. We just have to improve it. One part of improving it is not point out at ourselves nor others, that what they have been doing is pathetic, insufficient or wrong. Ego is a tricky thing. Mistakes are learning steps and absolutely necessary. Even poor quality command of one's language. As long as people are motivated to move on, makes me excited. I appreciate a person articulating in a not so perfect way while the ideas are brilliant, than a person articulating eloquently, but something completely useless, getting off by how important it sounds. I have always questioned Sapir and Whorf, I think human brain is capable of bright work without having a complete bank of possibilities at its immediate disposal. We are adventurous creatures. Cultural prism can also be protective, we just need to filter stuff out according to what we need at some particular moment.

Questioning is good. Even if the form looks slightly off to somebody. That somebody is not a language police, languages do not need it.
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  #128  
Old 11.08.2014, 20:17
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Re: On Linguistics

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Even if the form looks slightly off to somebody. That somebody is not a language police, languages do not need it.
Are we back to the debate normative vs. descriptive?
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  #129  
Old 11.08.2014, 20:59
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Re: On Linguistics

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Are we back to the debate normative vs. descriptive?
Hahahahah, mais oui.

And then maybe the other roles we have to super perform.
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  #130  
Old 11.08.2014, 22:40
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Re: On Linguistics

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Why do we learn? To get assured we have memorized something well long time ago, or to discover something new? Is what we learned long time ago still working, accurate and helpful? Is what is working necessarily good? Allowing others to change opinions and evolve is also as important as allowing oneself to do exactly that.
I wonder if we can ever be impartial enough to answer objectively those questions about ourselves. Often we rely upon man-made constructs to measure things, but I wonder if they are really a measure of anything at all. I watched a conversation today between 2 people, judging the actions of a third person. The exact same action was being viewed in polarised ways - 1 had the opinion the person had done something wonderful and selfless, and the other had the opinion it had been done to deceive and manipulate.
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  #131  
Old 11.08.2014, 23:28
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Re: On Linguistics

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I watched a conversation today between 2 people, judging the actions of a third person. The exact same action was being viewed in polarised ways - 1 had the opinion the person had done something wonderful and selfless, and the other had the opinion it had been done to deceive and manipulate.
I can almost visualize it...the tone, their facial expressions. What if one of the critics says to the other one first "I enjoy the fact our opinions differ". What if they both introduce their interpretations of what the 3rd person did with "This is only how his motives seem to us". People forget we see every single thing through a pair of glasses we made ourselves. Expect all to have our prescriptions and same tinted lenses.

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I wonder if we can ever be impartial enough to answer objectively those questions about ourselves. Often we rely upon man-made constructs to measure things, but I wonder if they are really a measure of anything at all.
I know. Uncertainty is uncomfortable, it can be too abstract for some. You can try to identify, quantify, classify, catalogue...Sometimes being rational helps with negative emotions that some people have when they face uncertainty. But man-made constructs can very much be results of rationality in overdrive because people simply cannot accept sometimes things will be fuzzy, concepts new and foreign, all premature assessment pointless.

Ask a 4yr old how much she loves. "So much most extremely a lot". A wonderful attempt to quantify, to feel a little bit bigger, closer to the grown up.

I don't know why I like dark blue, but I am quite committed to it since I was little. Somehow when we think dark blue we all imagine similar shade of the blue. Language is a contract, I tend to forget.
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  #132  
Old 12.08.2014, 00:55
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Re: On Linguistics

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I know. Uncertainty is uncomfortable, it can be too abstract for some. You can try to identify, quantify, classify, catalogue...Sometimes being rational helps with negative emotions that some people have when they face uncertainty. But man-made constructs can very much be results of rationality in overdrive because people simply cannot accept sometimes things will be fuzzy, concepts new and foreign, all premature assessment pointless.
We're rather capricious. Have you seen this TED Talk "The secret to desire in a long-term relationship" MC?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa0RUmGTCYY

Talking with you about dichotomies we express reminded me of it. I think Esther does a great job of explaining some of the conflicts we face.
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  #133  
Old 12.08.2014, 07:45
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Re: On Linguistics

Life is all about the dialectic. We get that way by asking, searching, being curious, courageous and hedonistic.

Sounds better than capricious

We have grown too anemic. Lazy, pushing people in our definitions instead of trying to understand theirs. Very normative.
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  #134  
Old 12.08.2014, 09:33
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Re: On Linguistics

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Life is all about the dialectic. We get that way by asking, searching, being curious, courageous and hedonistic.

Sounds better than capricious

We have grown too anemic. Lazy, pushing people in our definitions instead of trying to understand theirs. Very normative.
Well, but we have no objective way of knowing if we get anywhere at all. We certainly find ways to live in conflict with some, and peace with others, but are those indications of anything? On the one hand, they must be, because we see a difference, but how do we benefit from conflict? Or is conflict with some the byproduct of doing something special to get along with others? Or is conflict inevitable because we have more differences than likenesses, or are we drawn to conflict?

The veil of the internet seems to bring out the worst in many people. When they have the choice to be something of their own creation, they choose monstrous.
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  #135  
Old 12.08.2014, 17:38
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Re: On Linguistics

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... Language is a contract, I tend to forget.
Hey hey.
Was trawling the internetz for some work related stuff, when I found an interesting paper (wonky linguistic content warning)
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Languages differ in whether or not they require speakers to grammatically mark future events. For example, a German speaker predicting rain can naturally do so in the present tense, saying: Morgen regnet es which translates to ‘It rains tomorrow’. In contrast, English would require the use of a future marker like‘ will’ or ‘is going to’,as in: ‘It will rain tomorrow’.1 In this way, English requires speakers to encode a distinction between present and future events, while German does not.2 Could this characteristic of language influence speakers’ intertemporal choices?
In this paper I test a linguistic-savings hypothesis: that being required to speak in a distinct way about future events leads speakers to take fewer future-oriented actions. This hypothesis arises naturally if grammatically separating the future and the present leads speakers to disassociate the future from the present. This would make the future feel more distant, and since saving involves current costs for future rewards, would make saving harder. On the other hand, some languages grammatically equate the present and future. Those speakers would be more willing to save for a future which appears closer....
The Effect of Language on Economic Behavior: Evidence from Savings Rates, Health Behaviors, and Retirement Assets

In my simple un-wonky terms how we visualize life through language dictates how we will materially act our choices. Language is so powerful - once something is uttered, you can't take it back anymore ("my word is my bond"), unlike thoughts which we can keep to ourselves and hide them away. It's a different level of vibration: thoughts are immaterial, words are already in the material/physical realm and already have the potential to lead to actions, i.e. to physical modifications of the world.

Ok - back to my silent work now

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  #136  
Old 12.08.2014, 17:42
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Re: On Linguistics

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In my simple un-wonky terms how we visualize life through language dictates how we will materially act our choices. Language is so powerful - once something is uttered, you can't take it back anymore ("my word is my bond"), unlike thoughts which we can keep to ourselves and hide them away. It's a different level of vibration: thoughts are immaterial, words are already in the material/physical realm and already have the potential to lead to actions, i.e. to physical modifications of the world.

Ok - back to my silent work now

P.
That indicates some power over our body language and other non-verbal forms of communication. For that reason, I can't agree that we hide our thoughts away. I think we display our feelings and opinions in our expressions and mannerisms (even just our general behaviour).
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  #137  
Old 12.08.2014, 18:09
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Re: On Linguistics

Maybe I should have made my thought more clear - let's have a look at this pic


Last male player on the left is thinking "This is stupid, I should fold now..."
Guy immediately to his right says "Damn guys this is stupid, I'm folding...!"
The difference is that the second player materially affects the whole environment. The energy has jumped one state, the thought has materialized into action, nothing will ever be the same again.

(apologies for the ramble)
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  #138  
Old 13.08.2014, 14:02
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Re: On Linguistics

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Well, but we have no objective way of knowing if we get anywhere at all. We certainly find ways to live in conflict with some, and peace with others, but are those indications of anything? On the one hand, they must be, because we see a difference, but how do we benefit from conflict? Or is conflict with some the byproduct of doing something special to get along with others? Or is conflict inevitable because we have more differences than likenesses, or are we drawn to conflict?

The veil of the internet seems to bring out the worst in many people. When they have the choice to be something of their own creation, they choose monstrous.
Some do. Some open up to offer the best, since their social inhibitions don't really manifest themselves, facing what looks like a mere PC screen.

I think trying to avoid a conflict at all costs would not be something I would advise, actually most times and places, situations (well, depends on public exposure and the need for privacy, etc.).

Confrontation is important, life is a conflict, by many definitions. I think what you mean and something I also think about a lot, in respect to my mod role, or a teacher, or just a citizen - being exposed to violence and aggression. Ethical, non aggressive, not controlling, non threatening confrontation, constructive critical and mindful message...that's an art. And it is needed. The sticky point comes when a lot of people (as Dawkins points out) consider a mere different opinion as a threat, no matter in what packaging it comes.

There is no objective way to know if we are moving anywhere, true, one just has to rely on the positives of uncertainty. Challenging ourselves to have more of it, because it's then when we happen to be the most constructive, genuine, creative and new. Our minds are in survivor mode more than we realize and I am not overestimating our cognition. When we process uncertainty is when we get truly tested. Not when we have either situations and/or their solutions on a matrix repeat.

I think confrontation definitely is a by-product of facing new situations. Whether one will seek deliberately new situations, or whether one allows a new situation to teach him something depends on the individual. To waste it trying to prove we have memorized and mastered some matrixes, hmmm...maybe in a true emergency it does make sense. But an algorhythm might be futile when it is absolutely not necessary. We are by nature automatic beings, but too much can kill some of our potential, even for personal happiness.

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Hey hey.
Was trawling the internetz for some work related stuff, when I found an interesting paper (wonky linguistic content warning)


The Effect of Language on Economic Behavior: Evidence from Savings Rates, Health Behaviors, and Retirement Assets

In my simple un-wonky terms how we visualize life through language dictates how we will materially act our choices. Language is so powerful - once something is uttered, you can't take it back anymore ("my word is my bond"), unlike thoughts which we can keep to ourselves and hide them away. It's a different level of vibration: thoughts are immaterial, words are already in the material/physical realm and already have the potential to lead to actions, i.e. to physical modifications of the world.

Ok - back to my silent work now

P.
I have read about it, we also had a debate on this here, if I remember well, or maybe it was my study group. It's inspirational, thanks for sharing.

To be honest, German and English is so close together for me, language family type, I don't get too psyched about the differences and I should.

What you are writing about is true, is has been analyzed a few decades ago, not wonky at all, pragmatic linguists deal with this. The ability to act through language and how much it affects our life (see speech acts, Austin, etc.). Now, to what extent it affects our cognition, quality of processing...it is different for different people I think. The analyses on language as an act is more of a descriptive exercise to me, psychology offers more. It takes very little for a child to learn to say I am sorry, which is one act that really is quite important..but what next? Is the same principle going to work when you try to expose him at 18 to much more complex vocabulary and concepts, and you do not just want him to copy, but process, accept or reject? Language is more than just an imprint of a system as an inventory that has been put together long time ago. We definitely control our environment by it, and the level and quality of our own processing. But...there is more going on, and sometimes the correct words needed for it come later. Sometimes they will even not show up. Good use of language helps our potential. But for making our potential used, we (some) need a lot more (or less of what we have learned). And sometimes it means not living too much in our rational beings, letting language go for a min, not trying to have it limit us, let go off rational matrixes that we have on hand to protect us in an unknown situation, trust our intuition to save us and leave our potential in full scope to absorb the most of the new now and judge and process later, label it with words after we retreat from newness. Again, it is about personal tolerance of uncertainty and/or ambiguity.
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Old 27.01.2015, 22:24
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Re: On Linguistics



The New Yorker doesn't disappoint.
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Old 27.01.2015, 22:27
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Re: On Linguistics

Tai-chi and Gi-Gung is better, at least it's all in Mandarin
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