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  #21  
Old 05.06.2014, 19:29
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Yes. Because the Catholic Church still does not allow children out of wedlock to be baptised, and still does not allow non catholics to be buried in the Church or even village cemetery (still the case if Valais btw!!!), in very many places in the world.
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  #22  
Old 05.06.2014, 19:30
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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Yes.
So you believe in collective guilt?
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  #23  
Old 05.06.2014, 19:36
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

No, not at all. I'd want people to know that this is not what my religion is about, that it is a distortion and abomination- and that 'true' Catholics would never take part or condone in such abominations. I would want them to know that the good guys are NOT guilty. I would like my Church 'leaders' to explain that to the world- show it in every day teachings and practise- and condemn those who do believe that the above is 'acceptable'. So yes, not apologise, but say loud and clear 'this is not what my religion is about- and I condem those who distort and abuse the religion I believe in.

If my Church leaders were trying to cover up, or refused to condemn abuse done in its name- then I'd want to leave- as remaining would, somehow, tarnish my faith and yes, force me to share that guilt, in a way. I actually know many Catholics who have remained devoted Christians but have left the Catholic Church due to their covering up and hypocrisy.

Last edited by Odile; 05.06.2014 at 19:59.
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  #24  
Old 05.06.2014, 19:38
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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I would want them to know that the good guys are NOT guilty.

Hmmm... you don't really understand much about Christianity, do you?
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  #25  
Old 05.06.2014, 19:40
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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Yes. Because the Catholic Church still does not allow children out of wedlock to be baptised, and still does not allow non catholics to be buried in the Church or even village cemetery (still the case if Valais btw!!!), in very many places in the world.
That's not good, but being the member of any organization or club has its rules. Members should be free to speak out if they disagree, sure, but there should be no obligation.

The incidents you mention in Ireland are appalling, but why should people apologise on the perpetrators' behalf? And how can they show true sorrow and penitence?

If people who abuse others are still alive then the law should deal with them. If there was "corporate" neglect or abuse then the church should be legally or civilly punished.

I feel that a hollow apology from someone was has never and would never commit such an act is meaningless, and actually trivialises the actual crime.
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  #26  
Old 05.06.2014, 19:55
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

http://m.aljazeera.com/story/201461960536332

Wonder if this is good enough? Strange only al Jazeera picked it up and wasn't really headline news anywhere. Whereas the stoning event...well everyone heard of that one!
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  #27  
Old 05.06.2014, 19:57
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Indeed Porsche, indeed.
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  #28  
Old 05.06.2014, 20:00
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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Hmmm... you don't really understand much about Christianity, do you?
I do actually. And I am not talking about 'Christianity' anyhow.
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  #29  
Old 05.06.2014, 20:02
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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I do actually. And I am not talking about 'Christianity' anyhow.
Oh really? Then what are you talking about?
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  #30  
Old 05.06.2014, 20:17
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

In this instance, Catholicism. And I didn't say Catholics should apologise, but the Catholic Church and its leaders. But if I was a Catholic I'd like to say loud and clear 'not in my name, and not in the name of my Faith' and state categorically that this, and all the other abuses and systematic cover-ups, were totally wrong, and NOT a expression of the faith I believe in.

To be fair Porsche, the facts have been in most newspapers in the UK and abroad, inlcuding the Washington Post. Here is from the Guardian, and shows that the Church Leaders there are asking us 'not to judge':

Father Fintan Monaghan, secretary of the Tuam archediocese, says: "I suppose we can't really judge the past from our point of view, from our lens. All we can do is mark it appropriately and make sure there is a suitable place here where people can come and remember the babies that died."
Let's not judge the past on our morals, then, but on the morals of the time. Was it OK, in mid-20th century Ireland, to throw the bodies of dead children into sewage tanks? Monaghan is really saying: "don't judge the past at all". But we must judge the past, because that is how we learn from it.
Monaghan is correct that we need to mark history appropriately. That's why I am offering the following suggestions as to what the church should do to in response:
Do not say Catholic prayers over these dead children. Don't insult those who were in life despised and abused by you. Instead, tell us where the rest of the bodies are. There were homes throughout Ireland, outrageous child mortality rates in each. Were the Tuam Bon Secours sisters an anomalous, rebellious sect? Or were church practices much the same the country over? If so, how many died in each of these homes? What are their names? Where are their graves? We don't need more platitudinous damage control, but the truth about our history.

Last edited by Odile; 05.06.2014 at 20:31.
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  #31  
Old 05.06.2014, 20:40
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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In this instance, Catholicism.
What? The single largest church in Christendom?

That'll be Christianity we're talking about, then. It certainly isn't Islam or Hinduism, is it?

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I didn't say Catholics should apologise, but the Catholic Church and its leaders.
Eh? That's not what you said earlier:

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do you expect Roman Catholics in Argentina, Angola and the Philippines to apologise for these things?
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Yes. Because the Catholic Church still does not allow children out of wedlock to be baptised, and still does not allow non catholics to be buried in the Church or even village cemetery (still the case if Valais btw!!!), in very many places in the world.
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  #32  
Old 05.06.2014, 20:57
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Definitely not about Islam or Hinduism- and perhaps that is important to point out.

Try and tell that the the Pilgrims, Methodists, Huguenots and many other 'Protestant' groups who truly felt that Catholicism was no longer a good representation of their Christianity and had lost its way (they had a point, or 2- I think).

Apologies- I meant the leaders of all the Catholic Churches all over the world, not the Catholics as such. It was clear in my first post btw.

It is btw not that long ago that Catholics and Protestants agreed that they belonged to the same Faith, albeit in a slightly different way- instead of burning and torturing each other. I remember the 50s and 60s here, when Catholics and Protestants would be at loggerheads. My mother was a divorced Protestant and my father a devout Catholic- they were treated like dirt by both sides, and only the Christian Catholic Church (more or less the equivalent of Anglicism) agreed to marry them. That was in 1947- so not that long ago. In the Valais, the situation is still very much the same now- whereas now in Neuchâtel both Churches work very well together- with mixed marriages being celebrated by both priests in either Church.
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  #33  
Old 05.06.2014, 20:58
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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http://m.aljazeera.com/story/201461960536332

Wonder if this is good enough? Strange only al Jazeera picked it up and wasn't really headline news anywhere. Whereas the stoning event...well everyone heard of that one!
the problem is that "council" has no real authority. There will be always an ignorant self-proclamed ulema who will make a counter fatwa...and some desperate people will follow him.
This is a matter of state authority and not religion anymore (because the behaviour is clearly anti-islamic and has more to do with local culture).
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  #34  
Old 05.06.2014, 20:58
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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Do not say Catholic prayers over these dead children. Don't insult those who were in life despised and abused by you.
While I appreciate the sentiment, but I think you need to consider the feelings of the relatives of those children, the majority are now old people and very probably devout Catholics and to have the church wash it's hands of them would simply compound their suffering and pain - no this is not the way.
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  #35  
Old 05.06.2014, 20:59
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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Try and tell that the the Pilgrims, Methodists, Huguenots and many other 'Protestant' groups who truly felt that Catholicism was no longer a good representation of their Christianity and had lost its way
Yup. Try telling that to 1.2 billion members of the Roman Catholic church who most definitely consider themselves to be Christians.
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  #36  
Old 05.06.2014, 21:03
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Strangely enough I remember a heated debate in EF a few years ago when I described intolerant violent islamist in europe as "scum".... Now it's some "white english scum" in discussion. History repeats itself same décor but with different actors.
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  #37  
Old 05.06.2014, 21:15
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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Yes. Because the Catholic Church still does not allow children out of wedlock to be baptised...
Where did you get that from? I would challenge any priest that refused baptise
a baby of a practicing Catholic mother at her request to tell you which rule in Canon Law he is relying on???

The relevant law is:

Quote:
Can. 843 §1. Sacred ministers cannot deny the sacraments to those who seek them at appropriate times, are properly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them.

§2. Pastors of souls and other members of the Christian faithful, according to their respective ecclesiastical function, have the duty to take care that those who seek the sacraments are prepared to receive them by proper evangelization and catechetical instruction, attentive to the norms issued by competent authority.
So the bottom line is that unless the mother is a lapsed Catholic, it would be very hard to find a reason to refuse baptism under current Canon Law.
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  #38  
Old 05.06.2014, 21:27
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

And how do you define a lapsed Catholic, I'd like to know. Could being a woman having a baby out of wedlock with a non Catholic, or even an atheist- be held as a 'lapsed' Catholic. It certainly was the case here not very long at all- and still is in many parts of the world. As said, in the Valais you still can't be buried in the Church cemetary, which happens to be the VILLAGE cemetary- unless you are a Catholic. Many so called 'lased' Catholics were deemed so due to their 'sins' (like marrying a non Catholic or a divorcee)- but still very much considered themselves as Catholics because they never 'sinned' as far as they were concerned- but just loved someone from a different 'faith' (all Christians of course- but until recently that counted for little).
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  #39  
Old 05.06.2014, 21:56
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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Yes. Because the Catholic Church still does not allow children out of wedlock to be baptised..etc etc

My daughter was born in 2008 and baptised as a Catholic a few months later.

Her mother is divorced and we were not married or regular church goers.

We were not asked questions about our marital status.
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  #40  
Old 05.06.2014, 22:13
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

I do think 20th Century Ireland was a very special case with the hierarchy of the Catholic Church basically running the place and more interested in protecting the institution than in ministering to its congregation. The hierarchy wielded enormous power, and as always that power corrupted.

The Church hierarchy should apologise for failing it's flock, and the Vatican should apologise for failing to oversee the Irish church adequately. The members of the church in other parts of the world don't need to apologise those - it wasn't their fault that the hierarchy elsewhere in the world was venal and corrupt.
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