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  #41  
Old 05.06.2014, 23:16
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

I'm a lapsed Catholic - raised Catholic but sometime in the 1990's, stopped going to church regularly, married a non Catholic in a civil ceremony. Strictly speaking, I guess I'm excommunicated. When I was born in 1955, the priest in my mother's parish church would not baptize me because my father was a Jew and my parents were married in a civil ceremony. Four years later, we changed churches and the parish priest was shocked that a child should bear the brunt of a mean old priest's judgement. So I was baptized at 4. Several years later, my parents signed a bunch of papers and my mother was welcomed back into the church. Not that she ever left, she went to mass regularly - just never had communion. It meant a lot to her. My mother is someone who found peace in the catholic church for the most part - but she never pushed us to do the same.

My sister married a Protestant in a Christian ceremony. Her son decided to be baptised at age 8. The baptism was independent of my sister's acts. So some clergy, at least are looking at the individual. But there is enormous variability.

But all my life I've seen Catholic clergy with very different views, different interpretations. It's the same in Judiaism. Lots of cafeteria style religion. I don't know enough about Protestants and other Christians. What I have observed in my family is that when push comes to shove, moral, good people are pretty much the same regardless of their religion or lack thereof.

I don't care about apologies. I do care about actions. I want to see the church help the poor, foster education and behave in a merciful, inclusive manner toward all people. I don't have much use for judgment. I can't quote the Bible, but there's that passage about he who has no sin throwing the first stone. I do want people to learn from their mistakes or the errors of their institutions, so analysis of the past is important. So I guess some judgement is appropriate, but I dislike finger pointing type judgement.
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  #42  
Old 05.06.2014, 23:17
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Posted elsewhere:

'Because these children were born 'out of wedlock' they were considered essentially worthless, and worse than that, as an insult to the righteous just by being alive.That would be how they were regarded by the nuns.Very little would be done for them in illness, and because they were underfed, they went down like ninepins from the usual childhood ailments.The nuns still said their prayers morning noon and night, but there would have been little kindness for the children or their mothers.'

Perhaps it is hard for you younger people to remember how things were just not so long ago.

So when they found the bodies in the septic tank in 1975- the just concreted it up again- so nobody would find out.

Why remember anything? Just forget about it, and make the same mistakes, or worse, over and over again?

Last edited by Odile; 05.06.2014 at 23:29.
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  #43  
Old 05.06.2014, 23:21
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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Perhaps it is hard for you younger people to remember how things were just not so long ago.
What is there to remember? The fact that people are wicked? The fact that power gets abused? The fact that vulnerable people get treated appallingly?

There's enough of that stuff going on right now to occupy our thoughts without dwelling on stuff that happened in Ireland half a century ago.
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  #44  
Old 05.06.2014, 23:25
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

What makes people evil? The fact that they are evil or their religion. I think it's that they are evil and hide behind religion as a vehicle. Otherwise, it would be something else.
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  #45  
Old 07.06.2014, 10:37
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

In breaking news, a representative of the Roman church apologises!

So that's all right, then.
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  #46  
Old 07.06.2014, 15:08
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

I am sitting here shaking my head in amazement as I read some of the posts on this thread.

The Catholicism that some posters describe bears absolutely no relation to the Catholicism I grew up in. I don't discount your comments, your experiences and opinions are certainly as valid as mine... But we may as well be talking about life on different planets, the gulf between our experiences is that wide.

Even the 'universal' Church isn't practiced universally.

Heck, the reason that I am not a member of a parish in Switzerland is that the practices of Swiss village Catholicism that I have encountered here are so far removed from my post-Vatican II, liberation theology, Jesuit and Dominican educated, Franciscan nurtured, Chicago suburban Catholicism that it feels like a completely different religion. One I do not subscribe to.

Which is why calls for 'not in my name' are rather silly. Outsiders do not seem to realize that religions, countries, cultures, organizations are generally not monolithic. The perpetrators of (insert outrage here) have never represented me, my views, my practices - so I feel under no more compunction to denounce perpetrators of (insert outrage here) than I would evil folks of of any other flavor.

Denounce evil I will, because it is evil. As should we all. But I do so because it is evil, not because of a tenuous relationship as perceived by outsiders.
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  #47  
Old 07.06.2014, 15:13
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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religions, countries, cultures, organizations are generally not monolithic.
Generally not, no. The Catholic Church is though. The Pope sits at the top and that's true of every person and every community that calls itself Catholic. We're all individuals but, like with a company, sometimes the organisation can take a large measure of responsibility for the individuals within it where their individual actions have suspected communal or systemic causes.
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  #48  
Old 07.06.2014, 15:24
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Agreed- which is why it is paramount that the Catholic Church leaders, via the Pope- do makie it clear that all systematic crimes and injustices committed under the cover of its jurisdiction are condemned loudly and clearly, instead of covering up.. But often they don't because it does not want to offend any country or group- and want to keep numbers up.

Hopefully moving forwards. 50 years ago, for some of us, is when we were teenagers. For some of the women a bit older from me I know in Ireland, the reality of the cruelty of the nuns, and how they were encouraged to bully other children who had single mothers- is very much alove now.
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  #49  
Old 07.06.2014, 15:36
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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Generally not, no. The Catholic Church is though. The Pope sits at the top and that's true of every person and every community that calls itself Catholic. We're all individuals but, like with a company, sometimes the organisation can take a large measure of responsibility for the individuals within it where their individual actions have suspected communal or systemic causes.
This is something that non-Catholics often do not seem to understand, but no - universal is not the same as monolithic.


The basic tenants of the Catholic faith are (supposed to be) universal. How Catholicism is practiced is widely divergent. Do not confuse faith with practice.

The pronouncements of a pope in Rome actually have little influence on my determination of what constitutes a moral life. Some have been leaders I have looked up to and listened to as I make my decisions. Others I reject, and ignore.

And still I call myself a Catholic. In good conscience.

Last edited by meloncollie; 07.06.2014 at 15:52.
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  #50  
Old 07.06.2014, 15:58
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Thanks for that Meloncollie. Your prerogative and of course I shall respect the views expressed. Although I must say I truly cannot understand how one would want to continue to be part of an organisation, Christian or otherwise- where the leadership (in this case the Vatican and the Pope) are not representative of what I'd believe to represent a moral or true position. The saying holds true I suppose 'once a Catholic, always a Catholic'. Despite being excommunicated and ostracized ba his Church, Catholic family and Community- the fear instilled in my dad as a youngster (burn in hell and all that)- I am sure lived with him to the day he died.

Quite a few of my modern and younger friends raised in the Catholic Church has remained sincere and active Christians, but have distanced themselves from the Mother Church due to not only the extreme cruelty shown by the previous generations in that Church, but more importantly the systematic cover ups fo crimes committed in the name of.


Excellent post Edot, and thank you.
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  #51  
Old 07.06.2014, 16:13
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I apologise [White English Scum]

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This is something that non-Catholics often do not seem to understand, but no - universal is not the same as monolithic.


The basic tenants of the Catholic faith are (supposed to be) universal. How Catholicism is practiced is widely divergent. Do not confuse faith with practice.

The pronouncements of a pope in Rome actually have little influence on my determination of what constitutes a moral life. Some have been leaders I have looked up to and listened to as I make my decisions. Others I reject, and ignore.

And still I call myself a Catholic. In good conscience.

The distinction between faith and practice is very important. I think it exists in all religions where heterogeneous populations practice the same religion.

Pope Francis lost some points in my book this week with this:
http://time.com/2814527/pope-francis-dogs-cats-pets/

Last edited by edot; 07.06.2014 at 16:24.
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  #52  
Old 07.06.2014, 16:40
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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And how do you define a lapsed Catholic, I'd like to know. Could being a woman having a baby out of wedlock with a non Catholic, or even an atheist- be held as a 'lapsed' Catholic. It certainly was the case here not very long at all- and still is in many parts of the world.
Now I think you know as well as I do what it means to be a lapsed Catholic as well as I do and that having a child out of wedlock does not make one a lapsed Catholic, so no there is no reason as you claim for such a child to be refused baptism.

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As said, in the Valais you still can't be buried in the Church cemetary, which happens to be the VILLAGE cemetary- unless you are a Catholic.
So here we go again... If this is true, then it is not the 'VILLAGE' cemetery as you claim, but in fact a Catholic cemetery owned by the Catholic Church and yes Canon Law will apply to it. And while I can't imagine many non Catholics would want to be buried in a Catholic cemetery other than perhaps the close family of a Catholic, Canon Law does allow for the possibility of non Catholics to be buried in the cemetery.
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  #53  
Old 07.06.2014, 17:41
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Not sure you quite understand. Until not very long ago, everyone in those Valais villages was deemed a Catholic. So there is only one cemetary- it is the village cemetary, but it is under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church. So you either are a Catholic and can be buried there- or you are not- and you have to be buried in another non denominational cemetary perhaps a long distance away- away from family and friends and family burial plots. What sort of choice is that? Or be cremated- which again is still very much disaproved of by older Catholics. Why would someone not want to be put to rest near their home and loved ones? All the cemetaries in the villages nearby will also be Catholic and follow the same rule.

My father did not become a lapsed Catholic due to lack for faith- he was a truly 'good' Catholic all his life- and still was apart that he married a divorcee who had a child and happened to be a Protestant. Nowadays it could not be a problem- but in 1947 it really was a disaster for his family.
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  #54  
Old 07.06.2014, 18:06
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Funny, cos the Roman Catholics and Protestants of Glarus have shared a church for the last century and a half.

Maybe it isn't the Roman Catholics who are at fault here. Maybe it's just the Wallisers who are intolerant and bigoted?
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  #55  
Old 07.06.2014, 18:15
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

my father used to accompany his roman catholic second wife to church, he'd put something in the donation tray that went round and say 'another jewel for the pope'

funnily enough because this was her second marriage, she wasn't allowed to be married in church (still being married in the eyes of the church to her philandering abandoning first husband and all). Thank god though that we have civil ceremonies for all those going to hell eh?
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  #56  
Old 07.06.2014, 18:37
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

No idea about the story of Glarus. Neuchâtel was an almost totally Protestant Canton, with a few pockets of Catholic immigrants from the Jura (my dad's family) until the immigration of the 50s, 60s and 70s (Italians, then Spanish and then Portuguese). Nowadays it is about 50/50 due to above- and the two Churches do work closely together now- perhaps more out of necessity than by choice. I remember cousins having more or less arranged marriages in order to keep the Catholics separate and keep up and hopefully increase, the numbers- as said, later Catholic immigration and increasing inter-marriage have helped the way towards more and more joining of forces and ecumenical services and activities. Valais on the other hand was always Catholic, and the immigration from the above countries actually confirmed and strenghtened their Catholicism and therefore prevented any such opening.

It is amazing how different Switzerland is from the religious point of view as well, from C/Kanton to C/K! Perhaps many expats are not aware of the differences here- perhaps interesting to look up the religious history of your area.

BTW in Canton Neuchâtel, in the town of La Chaux-de-Fonds, there was a big Jewish congregation, with a beautiful synagogue. Many of the town's most sucessful business people were Jewish. The numbers are however fairly small now.

Another fact I learnt about recently is how the Jura, that was always Catholic, actually became a haven for protestant communities. The Huguenots and 'more strangely' the Menonites- strangely because they were thrown out of Protestant Bern for being a different kind of Protestant- but actually found more tolerance and refuge in Catholic Jura. Also my father's staunch and bigoted Catholic family, were previously of course.... Protestant Huguenots who escaped torture and death earlier for their Protestantism from Catholic France !!!

I am trying to do research to find out how, why and when (after how many generations) those Huguenot immigrants decided to actually become Catholics- mainly why. Was it for love, or to fit in, in order to progress professionally??? If anyone has any information, I would love to hear about this, as I find it fascinating. Considering they were prepared to die for their Protestant beliefs, (and 10 of 1000s did)- how on earth did they 'turn coat'?

Last edited by Odile; 07.06.2014 at 19:54.
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  #57  
Old 07.06.2014, 20:05
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

And I believe that Bern has its own variant of Catholicism. At least that's from a friend whose family lived in Bern for many generations.

Why people choose different religions, and how they practice their faith is very interesting, but very idiosyncratic - so many factors impact it - often factors unrelated to faith.

Regarding the burial stuff - in the US Catholics are often buried in consecrated ground, and Jews are buried in Jewish sections, or Jewish cemeteries. My parents are buried in two separate cemeteries, each with their parents. It's weird, but on the other hand I've visited my mother's grave exactly twice and I've not been to my fathers grave since he was buried there. They're not there anyway.

Interesting thing about some Jews. In my family, my grandfather would not not touch morners he was not related to, wouldn't go to cemeteries where non family was buried (instead walk outside the gates).
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  #58  
Old 07.06.2014, 23:09
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

The lord moves in mysterious ways, especially when selecting his ground staff.

Regarding catholicism: Most catholic people I know, myself included, know little or nothing about the official doctrines of the church. Local church communities are very liberal.

This is were modern day aggressive atheists are wrong: They are in a fight against doctrines and extremists that may have hurt them in their past, without seeing how most people live their christian faith in their everyday lives, without beeing extreme.
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  #59  
Old 07.06.2014, 23:25
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Edot, I have no official figures to hand- but I believe that most people do not 'choose' their religion. Mostly they are born in a family with that religion- some adopt the religion of their spouse, often just in name to be accepted, but not really in deed. One of the reasons most religions do not want their followers to marry someone from another faith, is that it 'dilutes' it- and that children become unsure and confused- or mostly due to conflict just give up religion at all- we are proof of this. Between OH and me, over last 3 generations, we have about 5 VERY different kind of Christianity, and Islam. Some 'drop' religion due to conflict- others because conflict, etc, has made them think and they came to the conclusion that none of it makes any sense. All my family in this category and next generation, and all OH's family in the UK too.

People who choose a religion totally by selection based on the examination of the facts are very very rare indeed. OH's grandfather did change religion totally in the 1870s- as he fell in love with the art of another culture, which led him to study that religion and make a true choice. Very rare though.
How many people do you know who have become religious 'out of the blue' without a relationship with someone who is religious?

Last edited by Odile; 07.06.2014 at 23:37.
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  #60  
Old 08.06.2014, 00:39
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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People who choose a religion totally by selection based on the examination of the facts are very very rare indeed.
Very true but even then when have facts and religion gone good together?
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