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  #61  
Old 08.06.2014, 08:31
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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Edot, I have no official figures to hand- but I believe that most people do not 'choose' their religion. Mostly they are born in a family with that religion- some adopt the religion of their spouse, often just in name to be accepted, but not really in deed. One of the reasons most religions do not want their followers to marry someone from another faith, is that it 'dilutes' it- and that children become unsure and confused- or mostly due to conflict just give up religion at all- we are proof of this. Between OH and me, over last 3 generations, we have about 5 VERY different kind of Christianity, and Islam. Some 'drop' religion due to conflict- others because conflict, etc, has made them think and they came to the conclusion that none of it makes any sense. All my family in this category and next generation, and all OH's family in the UK too.

People who choose a religion totally by selection based on the examination of the facts are very very rare indeed. OH's grandfather did change religion totally in the 1870s- as he fell in love with the art of another culture, which led him to study that religion and make a true choice. Very rare though.
How many people do you know who have become religious 'out of the blue' without a relationship with someone who is religious?

Perhaps choose was not the appropriate word....i probably meant choose to be rligious. In my extended family (catholic side), i have several cousins (2nd, 3rd) who now consider themselves "Christian" rather than Catholic for a variety of reasons....but i think marriage and some specific beliefs influenced it. They are more outwardly religious (what's inside I don't know). And some of my cousins are still scandalized that someone might marry a Jew 60 years after my mother married my father. Ugh.

Maybe the thing with mixed marriages is that you see underneath it all, people are pretty much the same.
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  #62  
Old 08.06.2014, 10:57
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Agreed- perhaps even, as has been my case when I was a child- you can see that the kindest, most tolerant and open- are indeed the ones who are not religious- and therefore that option becomes more naturally attractive.

Certainly the case with friends and relatives all over the world, where religious conflict within the family or community also led to the same.

Last edited by Odile; 08.06.2014 at 19:14.
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  #63  
Old 08.06.2014, 10:58
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Anecdotal evidence - we loves it!
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  #64  
Old 08.06.2014, 11:09
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

FFS, Odile, it's really bad form to reply to comments in posts preceding those comments. You've been told about this again and again, and you still do it!

I'm not responding to your edit, as it doesn't exist as far as I - and the flow of the thread - am concerned.
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  #65  
Old 08.06.2014, 12:55
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Mods: if there was a material edit to Odile's post could you please revert it to its original. Clearly a thread like this is a dialectic and that doesn't bear revisionism.
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  #66  
Old 08.06.2014, 19:13
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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Mods: if there was a material edit to Odile's post could you please revert it to its original. Clearly a thread like this is a dialectic and that doesn't bear revisionism.
Had run out of EF allowance- so I've deleted and added now with apologies....' so before I go out and enjoy the sunshine- I'd say that one's experiences with religion are all somehow anecdotal- I am sure yours is too. However, this has happened to so many of friends, acquaintances and family- that it is hardly anecdotal anymore actually. The only people I know who are still religious are those who were born in a ONE religion, and stuck to it- perhaps because they (culturally, etc too) never were forced to question it when faced with conflict. And just a few who converted for love- very few of them who have actually adopted the religious content. The adoption of a religion, lock, stock and barrel is very rare indeed, and usually arises of a great crisis or conflict. For my OH's grandfather, it was his love of art which brought him to the religion- but also perhaps the conflict which arose in his staunch CofE family about him being an artist- which put him off his own religion and culture'.

Added now that I've got EF allowance again. Apologies.
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  #67  
Old 08.06.2014, 20:49
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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This is were modern day aggressive atheists are wrong: They are in a fight against doctrines and extremists that may have hurt them in their past, without seeing how most people live their christian faith in their everyday lives, without beeing extreme.
The dislike and distrust of atheist is by no means an issue that's in the past. Being an atheist is a crime in many countries, a non-religious person will never get elected to major office in the United States, etc. Give this study a read.

Spending a large part of my youth in the American South, scenes like this were common among my geek friends who dared to read a book or two, unlike their parents.
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  #68  
Old 08.06.2014, 22:13
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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Spending a large part of my youth in the American South, scenes like this were common among my geek friends who dared to read a book or two, unlike their parents.
When the mother comes over and grabs him, after he states that he doesn't believe in God, I'm expecting her to say something like "You don't believe in God? OK, then you are going to spend eternity in hell." or something like that. Instead, it's "OK, then you are not getting anything for Christmas because Christmas is all about Jesus Christ". Oh, sorry Mom, yeah, I believe. And now can I have the new iPhone?
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  #69  
Old 08.06.2014, 22:22
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Actually there is a parrallel here with First Communion in the Protestant Church. Kids who agree to it always get a big present as a reward from parents and god parents and often grand-parents too. Most of my friends 'went through the motions' for that very reason. My brother got a Patek Phiippe from his god father- I got a silver dinner service from mine.
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  #70  
Old 08.06.2014, 22:55
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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Actually there is a parrallel here with First Communion in the Protestant Church. Kids who agree to it always get a big present as a reward from parents and god parents and often grand-parents too. Most of my friends 'went through the motions' for that very reason. My brother got a Patek Phiippe from his god father- I got a silver dinner service from mine.
You might be interested to know that First Communion as a ritual doesn't even exist in any of the Protestant churches I grew up in. Nor do kids have godparents or baptism sponsors or whatever.

I assume you must be talking about some particular denomination(s) that exist(s) in (some part of) Switzerland. That's fine, but the discussion will probably be able to get further if we don't lump everything in together, or overgeneralize from personal experience. Which, now that I think of it, kind of brings us back to the point of the whole thread....
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  #71  
Old 08.06.2014, 22:59
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Well we are in Switzerland- so yes, my post was about the Protestant Church here in Switzerland, not just here where I live, but all over. First Communion takes place age 15/16 after a preparation course. ( Eglise Reformée Evangélique). So yes, anecdotal as far as it is about Switzerland.
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  #72  
Old 08.06.2014, 23:01
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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the Protestant Church
What the Protestant Church?

You mean the Evangelical Reformed Church, one of the many diverse protestant churches which operate in Switzerland?
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  #73  
Old 08.06.2014, 23:03
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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I assume you must be talking about some particular denomination(s) that exist(s) in (some part of) Switzerland. That's fine, but the discussion will probably be able to get further if we don't lump everything in together, or overgeneralize from personal experience. Which, now that I think of it, kind of brings us back to the point of the whole thread....
The point is that everything you need to know about Jesus and his message is in the new testament. Somehow, all of the churches don't get the message. Whoever calls themselves superior to others hasn't got the message. In my personal oppinion, the churches are the "pharisees and scribes" of our times.
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  #74  
Old 08.06.2014, 23:05
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

It is the official Reformed Protestant church of Switzerland since the Reformation. Due to the fact the Protestant Church here became truly reformed, unlike the Church of England which became a Catholic church without a Pope- there never was a multiplicity of Protestant Church as has happened in England. Quite possible the Pilgrims would have never left had they been able to join a 'proper' Protestant Church. Perhaps look at the figures. If you say in Switzerland that you are Protestant, it is therefore assumed you belong to the Evangelical Reformed Church- hence this is what I was talking about.
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  #75  
Old 08.06.2014, 23:06
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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there never was a multiplicity of Protestant Church as has happened in England.
That simply isn't true. Go and look in your phone book if you don't believe me.
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  #76  
Old 08.06.2014, 23:10
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

5.7% in Switzerland belong to other Christian denominations apart from Catholic and Reformed evangelical Church.
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  #77  
Old 08.06.2014, 23:12
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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5.7% in Switzerland belong to other Christian denominations apart from Catholic and Reformed evangelical Church.
So what? There are several different protestant denominations in Switzerland, and have been for a very long time. Your assertion that there is a single protestant denomination here is simply not true.

Or maybe I'm imagining the existence of Swiss baptists, Swiss methodists and Swiss free evangelicals?
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  #78  
Old 08.06.2014, 23:17
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

They do indeed exist, and so does the Salvation Army, but the numbers are very small. Anyone in Switzerland who uses the term 'Protestant' will assume Evangelical Reformed Church, due to the very small numbers involved in other Protestant communities. Among the small proportion cited above, the Christian Catholic Church, which is the closest to CofE (with Pastors allowed to marry) is also a large part.

If you go and register at your Commune and state you are 'Protestant' they will not ask you if you are a Baptist or a Methodist here.
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  #79  
Old 08.06.2014, 23:21
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

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They do indeed exist
Thank you. I knew we'd get there in the end.
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  #80  
Old 08.06.2014, 23:24
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Re: I apologise [White English Scum]

Glarnerinnen und Glarner sind entweder evangelisch-reformiert (42 Prozent) oder römisch-katholisch (37 Prozent). Dazu kommen orthodoxe Christen, Anhänger islamischer, jüdischer und anderer Gemeinschaften sowie Menschen, die keiner Religion angehören.
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