Although I was tempted to post this thread in the complaints department, the language corner is where it really belongs. Has anybody seen this?

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/index/Li...ml?cid=7911192

This isn't a thread about whether or how much English should be an international lingua franca. This isn't about whether the Swiss need to learn English more (judging from this forum, many of them do---thank you very much) or foreigners need to learn Swiss-German/High German/French/Italian more. (Yes, but most of the people on this forum---myself excepted---seem to be trying.)

This thread is whether it's a bad idea for a language like French (but not necessarily French) to adopt words from English into their language. I have to admit---I'm biased. I'm proud of the fact that English has taken many words from places and languages all over the world. Indeed, it's a shock to find that some "quintessentially American" words like "boondock" or "honcho" have come from the Phillipines or Japan.

But others here may disagree. Anybody else want to weigh in on this?

Edward J. Cunningham
Derwood, MD

They may borrow them, but we shan't let them keep them.

They don't pronounce them properly, anyway.

Two exceptions for this rule seem to be "football" and "locked-in syndrome."

Edward J. Cunningham
Derwood, MD

I could say the same about French words borrowed by English language..

That's what makes that a language is living or not. French has many words
coming from other languages, they are massacred, triturate, pronounced differently and finally become part of our language. Isn't that nice ?

EXACTLY! Once you take a new word and make it a part of your langauge, you have the right to change the pronounciation!

(Classic example---"guerilla." In English, it's pronounced the same as "gorilla" which has led to countless jokes, but in Spanish, it's pronounced "gerrEEEya" and rhymes with "Korea.")

It's natural for languages to add new words and this is (or should be) done from the bottom up---NOT the top down!

Edward J. Cunningham
Derwood, MD

P.S. More examples---The American pronunciations for "Detroit" and "St. Louis" have changed once English-speakers were in charge of those areas.

I don't know what either of "boondock" or "honcho" mean, so in the sense of "internationally accepted English" I'm not sure I get your point.

No such thing. English is not like French. Which was the whole point.

But speaking of Francais:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1404632/

Putting my toque on and off for a curry.

Boondocks and Honcho are in UK English. And they're in my Shorter Oxford English Dictionary.

I do not believe that the French language should be decided by a government committee in Paris. That being said, I support these reforms. Can't quibble about "francifying" referendum since we anglify foreign words all the time. But it should be done from the bottom up---not the top down.

With that in mind, if traditionalists think these spelling changes are a bad idea, they should ignore Paris and continue to spell the words the old way.

Edward J. Cunningham
Derwood, MD

It is a very difficult question with lots of issues involving identity, culture, history etc. I have been involve in a related discussion on a German-English dictionary forum. The question was about using words like "bullshit" (a mild example) in a foreign language. One of the examples that was raised was an article in Beobachter titled "Bullshit am Verwaltungsgericht". (Translation: Bullshit at the Administrative Court.) In a comparable magazine in the U.S. you would not find "bullshit" used in the title of an article concerning administrative courts. Where is the line? I have heard kids here in Switzerland calling each other "nigger". So they've taken a word from a foreign language and made it their own. Just like we took Schadenfreude. Is it the same?

Not quite sure what you meant by this: "judging from this forum, many of them do---thank you very much"?

I might as well explain what these two words mean for those unfamiliar with these words.

"Boondocks" is used to describe a place that is relatively isolated----either distant suburbs or the countryside far from the city. From what I gather on this forum, the famous Canton Schwyz could be described as "the boondocks."

"a remote and undeveloped area"
"the term boondocks refers to a remote, usually brushy rural area; or to a remote city or town that is considered unsophisticated."
"Woods or wilds, far-away spaces or that portion of the country which is fit only for the training of Marines."

It is probably best known as the name of the American comic strip "The Boondocks" by Aaron McGruder about two young African-American kids who move with their grandfather to a mostly Caucasian suburb. It has now become an animated TV series.

http://www.boondockstv.com/

In the Tagalog language, "bundok" means mountain. This word plays an important role late in Neal Stephenson's novel Cryptomnomicon.

"Honcho" means boss, and in the U.S. the phrase "head honcho" is popular.

"foreman: a person who exercises control over workers"
"boss, leader"
"A slang term describing the leader or person in charge of an organization."

It comes from the Japanese meaning military squad leader. According to the U.S. Marine dictionary, it refers to the Marine in charge.

http://toysforkidsvt.com/index.php/marine-dictionary

Edward J. Cunningham
Derwood, MD

I meant that judging from native-born Swiss like Betrand who post at the English Forum, I would say that many Swiss do in fact speak English. Many is not necessarily "all" though.

Edward J. Cunningham
Derwood, MD

The shortened and dimunitive "the boonies" is more popular in usage than "the boondocks" in Canada.

You know, I always assumed honcho had Mexican origins, just from the form. Japanese, eh. Interesting.

Yes, I thought I'd misunderstood.

While explaining where I live, I used the word "boondocks" to an Australian friend of mine. She didn't know the word and after I defined it, she said, "oh, woop woop". Australian for boondocks. English, the international language.

Completely off topic, hope you're enjoying the snow! My dad lives in Potomac and can't stop complaining.

I actually skimmed through a book (I think it was "How To Learn Any Language" ) which recommended NEVER learning any profanity. I would say if you normally use profanity, then you should learn it, but you should be very careful about using it. I would say you need to be even more careful if you appropriate profanity from another language because what might be seem to be a mild swear word to you could be highly offensive to somebody else.

Which leads us to the n-word, which is the linguistic eqivalent of the third rail. Yes, it's common for African-Americans to call each other n's as a term of endearment, but any Caucasian who uses it does so at their peril. Many African-Americans are also offended when someone suggests other derogatory words are equally to offensive to any other ethnic group as "n_____" is to them. To make a long story short, CAN you use derogatory ethnic slurs from other languages? Yes---but you shouldn't.

(On the same subject, I should point out that I was surprised to learn from a Jewish friend of mine that the word "dork"----which in English is an extremely MILD swear work---is supposedly a stronger swear word in Yiddish---the equivalent of "dick." But unless enough Yiddish speakers make a fuss about it, I don't see current usage of "dork" to change anytime soon.)

Edward J. Cunningham
Derwood, MD

Absolutely. Never swear in a language other than your own because you really don't know what level of offence you might cause.

In many cases it would be a bit like taking them back... How much of english vocabulary does derive from french?

French resistance to the intrusion of foreign words into their language is futile. If history teaches us anything, it's that when faced with an invasion, the French always surrender. I hear that when the acadamie francaise takes a vote, members raise both hands

25% of English is derived from French. 65% has the same roots as German - but the consonants have shifted, so it can be hard to spot.