Hello Forum,

We are starting to think about launching ourselves into the real estate market here in Switzerland and buy a house. (i.e. we are in the initial research steps)

Of the options regarding the state of any house we may be interested in, obviously we could choose from new build (no renovation) or a run-down pile of bricks (full-scale renovation)

This leads to a question. For renovation/DIY topics in Switzerland, does anybody know - or have experience of - the following : What can you legally do yourself, what can you not legally do, what work is notifiable to the Gemeinde / Bauamt, how willing are tradesmen willing to work with you, etc.

Reason is, of course, cost. A friend of mine had a plumber in to move a radiator from the left-hand side of the vertical pipes to the right-hand side. Easy job and all went exactly to plan. Cost was 2500,-SFr. Yikes.

From my experience in the UK, I give an example - gas central heating. My house had no central heating. I did some research on installing central heating myself. Most people gave many different stories about what you can do, ranging from everything to nothing at all. I gave up and spoke directly to CORGI/HSE at the time and their line was that the legal regulations stopped short of forbidding DIY gas installations (in addition, they sent me the regs). The reality is that they only recommend an official gas installer to do the work, but it is complelety legal to do it all yourself -- so long as you are competent to do the job in hand. The regs did not define competent (in the sense of you must have such and such qualifications, etc), so a long, explanatory, discussion with CORGI followed. Essentially, "competent to do the job in hand" applies to anything you do and "job in hand" is relative - you don't need to do a four year diploma course to be able to change a light switch. OK, this was all in 2000, so maybe things have changed since.

The caveat of all of this is that if an accident occured, (in the UK) there would be an investigation and you could end up in court to have your competence assessed (scary prospect). But, this actually applies to anything you do yourself - DIY garden wall collapses resulting in injury, and so on.

So, that was that experience, and I suspect it may be similar here.

I have briefly rummaged around some German / Swiss forums (mainly regarding electrical stuff), but the replies to people's queries are equally confusing and it seems sometimes that electricians here can be highly protective of their industry and severely condone people for even daring to ponder the thought of replacing a single light switch.

A funny thing to finish - I find people here to drop jaws and almost faint in sheer astonishment when they see you doing even the most simple of 'diy' things. Even changing the wheels on my car results in this effect, followed by a highly smug attempt to discredit your work by asking if you have a torque wrench, at which point the smugness evaporates when they see I have one in my hands. Suprisingly, nobody has asked if it has a current and tracaeable calibration certificate ;-)

Cheers,
Chris

Very simple:

IT DEPENDS.

It depends on the city and canton. It depends on what you want to do. It depends on where you want to do it. It depends on what is involved. It depends on whether you want to risk having a fine 250.000 CHF because you didn't want to pay those 2500 CHF to an electricitian.

You can take it this way: everything that affects the outside of a house (apart from changing plants in the garden) you will need a permit. Depending on what, you might be forced or not to use a certified profissional.

If it's inside a house and it's big changes, like moving/tearing walls down, you need a permit. Depending on what, you might be forced or not to use a certified profissional.

If you want to change anything on your house, consult the Gemeinde. They are usually friendly enough to give you free advice.

also you might find that a renovation project has to be announced within your commune so people can object to the work, noise, changes .... or someone's house becoming nicer than theirs.

A totally different ball game here. Mind you, I know a lot of people in France who saved ££££££ by buying in UK and getting UK friends to come and do the work for them (on the black) only to find when they want to re-sell that nothing has been done according to French regs and permits, and with the 'wrong' equipment, materials - and unable to sell until it is all put right. I imagine same applies here. Also everytime you improve something, the taxes on your house will change, as amenities improve and go up a peg or 2. However you should be able to put against tax if it is a replacement, but not if it is a new amenities. (so replace kitchen = against tax. Add another bathroom = not able to claim against tax + add amenities= + tax).

Be careful. Go in eyes wide open.
My mate has just bought after a year of searching.
He was lucky to have a friend who is a local surveyor who steered him clear of a couple of seemingly good investment renovation projects, but which in reality would have sunk him financially. Asbestos issues, drainage, lead paint etc, etc.

For example, one place priced at CHF1.4mill would have required (surveyors estimate) CHF700k to renovate. It's end value would have been CHF2m.
He's now paid CHF760k and will need to spend CHF250k to renovate, and end value will be approx CHF1m. Rewire quote was CHF35k !!!!!!
Another friend paid CHF700k for a place, renovation quote from a local builder was CHF450k! The end value would be CHF1.1m absolute max.

It seems to me, and this being Switzerland, there are no bargains to be had. Houses are priced accordingly, and if it seems to be cheap, then that's because you'll need to spend the same amount of money on it had you bought it pristine in the first place.

I'm pretty sure it's been covered in the Forum before.
Whatever, good luck with it!

Here it is more like-- do your own electicity and a short causes the house to burn down, insurance may not pay; do your own plumbing and the house floods, insurance may not pay; do your own roofing, and you get water damage, insurance may not pay....

There are swiss norms and standards, and if you don't know about them or don't follow them to a "t", you will have insurance problems as noted above, and approval issues by the commune. Note, everything needs permission by the commune here, changing radiators, changing colour of your house, new windows, etc...

Quite right, there seems to be a service history that goes with a house sale here, a bit like a second hand car. The Swiss want to see that the bathroom was installed by Herr Lip Plumbers GmBh down the road etc.

Ok guys, if you want a really honest answer:

If you are buying house/apartment which is older than 5 years, count on at least 500.000 CHF extra to the starting price to get the house running. This is the base we give our clients when they buy a house, even if they only want to change the kitchen in the initial idea.

"Bargain houses" here in Switzerland are different. And if you try to do illegal DIY repairs, you might end up in real problem because of taxes, insurance, resale problems.

I'm all for the DIY projects. But please be aware that the rules here are different, and to be honest, most are very rightly so.

Again, consult your gemeinde (town hall) before you do anything. And when looking in homegate.ch, pay attention to the year of construction!

Exactly, it's the same in the UK. It is perfectly legal to change a light switch - absolutely fine, as the risks have been determined to be low enough. But the insurance companies, etc., may take a different view if something did go wrong. In the UK, I was also forbidden from changing the outside appearance of the house (it was only a standard house and this prohibition was stated in the deeds).

I doubt that changing a radiator would require a permit (or - larger radiator = possible higher load on boiler than it's nameplate rating, increased emissions and fuel consumption - I could imagine !), but at the end of the day, my mission is to educate myself as to all of these topics and issues, understand it all and just play safe without unnecesarily emptying my bank account.

As to quotes and costs, a couple we know were quoted 60,000 for some chicken wire fence around their property and a small shrubbery (or was it platinum wire fence around a 500 acre plot with piled fence foundations and an extensive bonsai shrubbery..), 25,000 to paint the outside walls of a house. 50,000 to have a boiler replaced (or was this Zurich Airport's new boiler). It does sometimes seem expensive, though I always take such stories with a pinch of salt, as you sometimes find out there was a bit more to the story.

Anyway, our house purchase is only in research phase at the moment and will proceed slowly with due care and diligence.

Cheers,
Chris


PS: What amuses me is with every new house build here, a tower crane is present for the entire duration of the build. Never saw that in the UK (neither on Grand Designs either; the most you see is a mobile crane hired as required)

I disagree. We've done an apartment in a historic building, stripped, walls moved, rewired, new "period" windows - 160k

We're just about to do a freestanding house from the 1980s - 150-200k. Again, that will be stripped inside, walls removed, bathrooms moved and added and then brought back to high-quality finish and modern living.

Mind you, I'm not paying Zurich prices.

Not sure if I understand this one 100%. Our works have the crane throughout the whole process of building for technical reasons:

1. you will need it to carry the long metal lines for the concrete floors from street to building site
2. you will need it during construction for same reason and to lift/place prefabricated elements
3. you will need it to place the roof construction (which comes already half done from the zimmermann)
4. the price to unmount and mount again is way to high
5. transportation of a large object like a crane demands certain permits, fees, insurances and sometimes police escort, so it's just easier and economical smart to leave it there till the end

Hope that helps to answer your doubts

That's mainly due to different construction techniques used here compared with the U.K. You can't really carry concrete or rebar up a ladder.

But a labourer carrying bricks up a ladder can just about keep pace with the average bricklayer.

Pay attention to this post - its very important but a bit hidden!

Get a tax lawyer before you start - you may pay him CHF5-10 thousand but (if Helms numbers are right) you could claim all the tax back at your rate - 30% of CHF500 000 is not to be sniffed at! Get the advice about how to construct the invoices etc etc to maximise the impact.

again this depends on the commune and the regs. Some only reassess the rentable value when the property changes hands (or is extended significantly).

Also consider how you process your improvements - you have an allowance per annum for maintenance and you can bring the investment made when improving against the profit you make when selling and stepping off the ladder (i.e. not buying a place or buying a place worth less).

*groan*

What do you mean IF?



Yes, one of the wonderful things in Switzerland is the fact that you get money back from the taxes when you repair your own home.

Correct - that's why I said get a tax lawyer and not "trust me"

oops...sorry

With regards to the tax position.. I was told if you can show that the renovation is required because the existing stuff is 'crap' then you can claim the costs against the rentable valuation. Otherwise you can't.. ie it has to be a 'functional' upgrade not an aesthetic upgrade.

The quotes we had for our places varied by 180k, the most expensive being a local guy, who offered to do the least.

I'm sorry, but I must call foul on your numbers. 500K even if you just want to change the kitchen? Now I know you are just joking.


You can do DIY on the electrical system but then you need to get it certified. My husband rewired some parts of our house and then had the master electrician come in and check it all.

Ah, you missunderstood my post! It's not 500k for the kitchen. People buy the house counting on only needing to change the kitchen (which rounds 9k to 70k depending on how crazy you are). Problem is it's never only the kitchen. Eventually cracks open on the concrete walls after 5 years, humidity starts showing around 7 years because of waterproof layer on the roof got ripped out, tubbings need to be replaced or renovated after 10 years, roofing and insulation might need to be redone, etc.

In the end, not necessarily in one strike, getting the house into perfect condition will cost much more than that kitchen you were counting on. There are tiny little details you won't notice when you buy the place, and most sellers are experts in "forgetting to mention" them, and will strike you bad sooner or later if you are not prepared, specially because most of these problems are hidden. And most insurances for construction end 3-5 years after building is done.

Hope that clarifies the point ^^