Hello Forum,

as we seem to have found our dream house and are in the process of organising the financial side of things, I have a couple of questions for the EF'ers who have been down this path.

House (located south of Baden in the 'rohrdorf' collection of villages) was 80% renovated in 2010 before the couple living there threw in the towel got divorced and moved out.

So, basically the house need some final renovation work:
1. Undefloor heating is electric (i.e. with resistive heating cables buried in the screed.) This is not ideal, but as we would also replace the tiled floors with wood, this would be a good time to replace the heating with a water-based undefloor heating system. It may be a lot of work, but once done, it's done. There are some very good 'retrofit' solutions from companies such as www.waltermeier.ch. This would be in conjunction with a ground-source heat pump system, maybe with thermal solar panels to supplement the hot water and also maybe the swimming pool.

2. It has a swimming pool, 8×4m. Good condition. Anybody know what the expected maintenance costs would be per year (excluding heating costs)?

3. Large and solid fireplace, separating the living / eating areas. Would like this replaced with something more modern.

3. Attic room exists, but the stairs to is are those 'drop down' stairs from the ceiling (previous owner tried to motorise it!). These we would replace, and extend the existing staircase to the attic. My girlfriend's cousing is a carpenter/zimmerman, so no major issues expected there.

So, before we embark upon all of this, we would likely get an architect to give it the once over, give advice and draw up any plans, where necessary. And for the heating, the advice of a heating engineer would be required (also for the installation of heat pump, solar panels, etc. The undefloor heating pipework can be done ourselves)

Finally, a fireplace expert to advice on the removal of the old fireplace and have a new one installed.

Any experience and advice would be appreciated! Names and experience rating of various trades would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance and enjoy the last week before Christmas!

Cheers, Chris

A few comments.

On underfloor heating, if electic, and heats a whole house it will generally be expensive. If replacing by underfloor piping, this could get difficult/expensive due to having no pipe infrastruture in the house, and may not even be possible. We wanted to do the opposite and were advised against it, it could of been done, but very expensive without the infrastruture. Also, not sure why you would want to cover over with wood instead of tiles? Our friends have that and it already has had to be replaced twice in 3 years. Any moisture or bad installation will cause a mess with wood, curling and rippling. I personally would not do it.

Replacing a fireplace, if I understand correctly, will require all the internal lining and casing to have to be replaced and will be expensive. If you are just looking at cosmetic changes to the outside, then a different story.

As per attic, it seems this is not designated living space at the moment. As such is it insulated or has other amenities, ie. electricity, heating? Be aware if it is indeed designated 'attic' and non-living space, you would need to go through a lot of permissions in your commune/canton to have it changed to living space, and this may or may not get granted. If it is granted, it changes the tax basis of the house, and you will likely pay significantly more taxes as a result. Ie. if house is 100 cm and attic is 50 cm, you increase the taxes by one third.

Hi RunningDeer, thanks for the comments. Just to clarify the points:

The fireplace structure exists; we just want to do cosmetic changes to it without changing the infrastructure of the thing.

The attic has already been officially converted to a room in full (i.e. is officially habitable, with electricity, daylight and heating.) It is just the stairs that remain as drop-down stairs, and these we would like to replace.

For the floor, the entire ground floor is laid out with the original tiles from '83, which are 'farmhouse-style' red. Basically they are rather nasty and do nothing to assist in the accoustic properties of the room. It's for that reason we don't like tiles. With wood, I have seen plenty of error-free installations; my last place was mainly wooden floors and it was fine for years. Of course, they are prone to water-damage, but that's a risk (did it my last flat; iron leaked and slightly damaged 1m² of floor. Insurance paid without a faff).

As for the heating, we are still investigating the situation as to what we could do. Still waiting for the plans showing the floor construction methodology, which will determine the feasibility. I know people who have removed the top screed (can be 8cm or so) and installed a water-based u/floor heating system. A lot of work and labour (Hilti digging party!), but it's do-able and once done, done. But, research required. Saying that, I also know someone in Germany whose electric underfloor heating cable went open-circuit. And that required the replacement of the lot, including the floor

Cheers,
Chris

I'd still check out the 'officially converted' and 'officially habitable' before I spent money on altering the staircase. I know several folk who had a house built and knowing that the ruling about % dwelling space would probably be changed after a few years, did the 'preparation' so that, with the minimum of building work, they could use if officially when the law was altered. And there is little to stop folk sneakily jumping the gun as long as the long arm of the law (or in this case, the eye) doesn't find out.

Just to add my voice to the chorus - the 'habitability' of the space matters not - you must check that the space is officially permitted by the local and cantonal zoning laws.

Generally, an increasing in living space beyond the m2 registered in the Grundbuchamt requires a permit - and whether it is allowed is determined by the Ausnutzungsziffer for your property, possibly for your Quartier overall, and sometimes depends on other local regulations.

If you believe the space is already designated as living space, get that in writing from the 'kompetent' authority. An OK from the someone who does not hold the correct authority (which happens here with some frequency) may come back to haunt you.

Good luck!

Come to think of it, I wouldn't have thought that it was permitted to use an attic room as living space without a 'permanent staircase' for safety reasons (in case of fire).

Interesting points so far.

For the attic, which seems to have attracted the majority of interest, I shall have to check the situation. The point regarding fire escape requirements with 'drop down' ladders is a good one, and will be scrutinised.

I know it is common for people to install everything in these 'not-supposed-to-be-used-for-living' rooms (heating, electricity, etc) and leave them disconnected. When the building inspector has disappeared off round the corner, they connect them up.

But for the grundbuchauszug, it does not state the actual 'living' area. It states the total land area (569m²) of which 36m² is the swimming pool, 12m² is the outbuilding, 79m² is the area occupied by the house and 442m² is the available garden. All adds up to 569m². Ausnutzungszifgfer for W2 zone is 0.55 (i.e 313m², of which the house is currently 170m², including the legal/illegal attic roof)

Cheers, Chris

Do you have the Bauordnung book from Baden? It's not usual to have a Ausnutzungsziffer, usually you have a Baumassenziffer which is m3, not m2. Are you on a special protected zone?

I tried to check out in the office, but can't find the book here (we seem to have only kanton Zürich around).

The ausnutzungsziffer is on the gemeinde's website (oberrohrdorf). It's in a standard W2 zone, nothing special. Apparently it was increased from 0.35 to 0.55 a few years ago.

Cheers, Chris

If the 170m2 includes the attic room, and it is inscribed as such in the register and the tax forms, then I would be a bit more confortable. But would advise to do the homework and really check the official commune/tax records on this, especially if these figures just come from the realtor.

Now that you give the m2 for the ground/garden etc., it is not exactly a huge space considering the pool space. As such, really do your homework with the geothermal guys who will drill for the heatpump. You may only have one available space to drill, and it may not be suitable. Some communes limit it further, also due to noise factors from the heat pump. So try to get firm commitments from them that it is possible before going the heat pump route.

Otherwise, not sure if you need/want an architect, maybe a general contractor or engineer may be more suitable. Good luck.

Assume this one that lasted for years had underfloor water heating? As I understand only certain types of wood are suitable for underfloor heating, and then it does not always go as planned.

Internet is a wonderful thing once you have all the info you need!

Ok, in the Bauordnung it really only states the Ausnützungsziffer, and you say the house total area is within the 0.55 quota. I have to tell you, this is actually uncommon, since most Gemeindes work with the said Baumassen in m3, which allows a bit more freedom in the creative side So on this point you seem to be on the clear.

But it's not only a matter of the area of the attic being within the quote allowed. Among other things, these are important points to take into consideration:

1) enough windows (there is a quota for the percentage of windows needed for "living" rooms, which depends on each gemeinde).
2) clearance from fire brigade: this is what others have mentioned and might get into a bit of a trouble. A stair like what you described would not be accepted in regular terms.
3) safety regarding the positioning of electricity and the correct air circulation in the room (specially important considering it's an attic room)
4) The attic needs to have a minimum area (again gemeinde) of at least 1.8m height to be allowed as a "living" room. The space under 1.80m height is not considered living space.


I'm not trying to scare you or anything, but it's usually a good idea to have everything legal in your home, to avoid insurance problems and future selling problems.

If you haven't done so, I'd advise you to consult the Bauamt. They are usually friendly and helpful, unless you live in Küsnacht . They might also have a pretty good list of local builders and architects that might help you (they probably won't know if they speak English though).

Good luck!

The Bauamt certainly a good port of call, should things proceed further. My German is fine, so communications are not restricted. In any case I would like to speak to them on a more general basis as to what work requires a building permit and what not. I looked on www.bindexis.ch to find what permits have been granted on this house, but my basic subscription doesn't allow such detailed searches or precise results.

But, the attic room looks like it has been there for quite a while, how long I don't know. It is generally a large room with certainly more than 1.8m height and windows. It's just the issue with the stairs has caused concern about the legal standing of the room.

Anyway, I will keep the post updated with future findings !

Cheers,
Chris

I know the house you are talking about. It is not detached, which means that it is possible, and very likely, the Ausnützungsziffer was calculated for the entire project, not just per house per plot of land.

The AGV would be worth talking to, when additional space is used they reasssess the house. That is what happened when we finished off an existing living space, though in our case it was not the roof, and it was already centrally heated (underfloor heating). Also, we are very fortunate to live in a village with no Ausnützungsziffer.

We ran up against this - our house had plenty of Ausnutzungsreserve to allow us to add a Wintergarden (not even living space), but since another house had exceeded it's allowance that portion was taken from the overall total - and meant that no other houses in the Quartier could add on.

In our case, the Gestaltungsplan was controlled at the cantonal Bauamt, not the Gemeinde. We only understand this hitch this after purchase.

Not meaning to sound negative, Chris. It's just that many of us have been there, done that - or not done that, as we were not allowed to. I'd hate see anyone make the mistakes I did, hence the warnings. So dot every single i, cross every single t - and ask again, and again, and again if there are any other officials you should speak to - and get everything in writing.

I will find this out. The current owner said, that as the exterior was not altered, there was no requirement for a building permit. How true this is, I will find out, of course - never assume anything (cue Benny Hill sketch...) The insurance was updated in 2006, which I think was after the attic was converted.
Reading www.haus-forum.ch, there are a lot of people who have been unwittingly stung (sometimes big-time) - even when placing trust in an architect.

Cheers,
Chris

Update on this story, and a warning for others !

We continued our investigation with this house, and made a visit with an Architect this week on Monday (also with the Estate Agent, and his boss), who would make an analysis and write a report by Thursday. We clearly said that once we get the report, we would make a final decision today (we were already 90% decided). Fine, according to the estate agent and his boss.

All week, we heard nothing - no news good news, so to speak. We got the Architect's report yesterday (probably not cheap) and it was very good indeed, including basic assessments of all the renovation work we planned to do. The mortgage offer was fully in place and so today we happily phoned the estate agent to announce our intent to proceed and pay the deposit.

Oh, bad news...

The owner had apparently (in the last two days) found a buyer privately (i.e. behind the estate agent's back), who has put an offer in. Turns out the estate agent had not told the owner about our situation (i.e. today being final decision day for us) and the owner had not told the estate agent that he had found someone himself.

So, unless something changes in our favour before this buyer signs, we have lost our prospective dream house :-( Our financial advisor could not believe his ears when we told him.

We complained to the estate agent and also to the owner and that's how we found out the full story. From all of the adverts that we saw for this house, the contact details were only ever for the contracted estate agent (who is probably not happy now, as he has had to drive up and down from Luzern three times to allow us to see the house..)

So, a period of wound-licking is in order and it's back to square one - but with hard lessons learned.

Cheers,
Chris

Sorry to hear about what happened. I have seen properties listed where the agent thinks he has the listing exclusively, except he doesn't. At the moment the market is quite good, many owners have opted to sell privately and save the commission fees.

Many houses for sale are never advertised, and there are no signs, if you have a particular area in mind you need to talk to the locals.

We already have someone interested in our house and it is not even on the market yet.

Good luck with your search.

What a poo!

I don't know the house that you were thinking of, like Mrs Doolittle does.

If you are still looking in this area, I know of 2 pretty nice houses that are currently on the market:

http://www.comparis.ch/immobilien/ma...spx?id=6036626
This one is in a cul-de-sac, and has a mighty huge garden for Swiss standards.

http://www.comparis.ch/immobilien/ma...spx?id=6006217
This one is on a main-ish road (as far as main roads go in this area- which aren't very main).

There was a time when properties in Wettingen were far less expensive than Baden but that has changed it seems.

The OP's "dream house" was outside of Baden, in the rohrdorf, known for low taxes. The traffic into Baden from this side is awful though.

To the OP, we also lost out on a house last spring, and there was an agent involved who I would never deal with again. My advice to you if you are serious about a house is take a building engineer, they can give you an on the spot report, or a wriiten one. There is a very well known building engineer living in my village (Lengnau, the other side of Baden )

If you want a rough idea of renovation costs, take a general contractor with. I would only take an architect if it was the same one who built the house and has the original plans.

My sympathies, Chris.

I, too, have lost out because I haven't been able to move quickly enough to get the due diligence done. But I take comfort in knowing that at least I haven't made a very costly mistake.

Because it's a seller's market there is pressure to move quickly. That's all well and good if you can live with the property as is should you find later that your renovation plans will not be allowed, or if you can afford to toss a few million out the window. But as I've not seen a property that would suit my needs as is, nor having already made one expensive mistake can I shrug off another - so if I lose out on a property I have to say 'que sera, sera'.

This is actually why I am no longer looking in Switzerland. Given that what is currently on the market are mostly run-down properties at insanely high prices I'd be a fool not to do due diligence. And I'm not (that much of a ) fool.

And if it's any comfort, you are not alone. I lost one dream property when one of a group of heirs decided at the last minute (at the contract signing!) that he couldn't bear to part with the family home afterall.

What the owners did behind the agent's back is acutally not uncommon. For such an otherwise contract-abiding country, the shenanigans that go on when buying and selling here is quite surprising.

Hope you find another dream home - and remember that what you have learned in this round will stand you in good stead next time. Now that you know who to go to, what to ask you'll be in a better position.