Is this a Scam?

UserNamesAllTaken · #1 31.12.2011, 00:01

I know, you are probably thinking, if I have to ask, it probably is.
Especially if it involves Western Union.

Perhaps some backstory would help:
I had a signed contract for a place to live in Anieres near Geneva starting January 1st for 6 months. 15 days before moving there, the family says that due to a family situation, they could not offer it past January, but I could stay in January if I wished.

So I started looking for another place to live. I put an advertisement on tutti.ch, and I received a response from someone. He wanted a 600 Fr deposit, and rent of 850 Fr/month.
After we exchanged some e-mails about the place (with no punctuation and many spelling mistakes, which made it very hard for me to understand, especially since it was all in French), we text-chatted using skype, and then briefly did a video-chat, so I can confirm that the pictures he sent me were actually from where he lives.
Although he didn't seem to want to do a webchat. I don't quite understand why, maybe he just wasn't familiar with skype:

	Quote:
	UserNamesAllTaken Pouvez-vous allumer une webcam maintenant? Pour brièvement me la montrer? MEKHAzni ok je n est pas notre numero de telephone pour demarer la webcam UserNamesAllTaken Sur ma version de skype je viens de cliquer sur un bouton vert en haut à droite pour faire un "vidéo call" Comme ceci: Call Started

He asked for my full name and date of birth so he could make a rental contract (identity theft bells ringing?). So far he hasn't sent me a rental contract. He doesn't speak English, I don't speak French, but he says there is another occupant who speaks English, and it will be fine (all hail text and google translate?).

The room had no bed when we skyped, though it seems he put one in for pictures, it was pretty small - not very appealing, but beggars can't be choosers.

I asked for the address, he said it "l adresse est 16 route de malagnou"
I assume there should be some apartment number as well. He never gave a full name or number. He wanted to know what time I would arrive and said he'd meet me and show me the apartment.

	Quote:
	Je vais essayer de venir vous chercher je vous confirme cela mardi sinon je vais vous expliquer comment arriver à la maison car il y a un bus direct de

He gave me a deadline to decide if I wanted to take the place, and no other prospects had panned out yet, so I told him I'd take it.

Meanwhile I was also looking into a single occupancy Studio I saw on students.ch.

Someone wanted me to take over their lease, 6 month lease renewable, no deposit, only a little farther away, a bit cheaper, by a park. Very preferable, the student put me in contact with the landlord, who spoke French and German Fluently (I can speak a little German), and English.
Everything seemed legitimate and good.

I decided to take that studio.

I knew I already had an informal agreement to rent the other place, and as such had some obligations.

So I sent the other guy an e-mail (knowing neither of us had formal any signed contract yet, nothing regarding how much notice was needed), apologizing for the whole situation. I told him I'd be taking a different place, but I'd be willing to pay for the month of January.

I said I'd pay him via post finance, and asked for the needed information to pay him... thats when he asked for payment via Western Union.
Which of course tells me he would have asked for the deposit and first months rent via western union, which of course means its a scam, no?

Do I owe this guy anything?

	Quote:
	From: Scammer(?) Subject: Re: Réponse à votre annonce sur tutti.ch : PhD-Étudiant la recherche d'une chambre Bonsoir Vous savez vous m avez mie dans l enbarras je vous donne nom et prenon vous m envoyez les 850FRspar wester union voila mon non [Scammer(?)] mon adresse 16 route de malagnou Geneve pour m envoyez le numero au plus vite si entre temps je trouve quelqu un je vous renboursse la totaliter j espere trouver quelqu un a plus vite Salutations ----Message d'origine---- De: UserNamesAllTaken Objet: Re: Réponse à votre annonce sur tutti.ch : PhD-Étudiant la recherche d'une chambre Bonsoir, Je suis désolé pour le dérangement. Je vais vous payer un mois de loyer. Si vous êtes en mesure de trouver un autre locataire en Janvier, seriez-vous prêt à rembourser partiellement le loyer? Je peux envoyer les 800 Francs maintenant via PostFinance. S'il vous plaît dites-moi ce dont j'ai besoin pour effectuer le paiement.Encore une fois, je m'excuse pour la gêne occasionnée. Cordialement, [Me] --- From: Scammer(?) Subject: Re: Réponse à votre annonce sur tutti.ch : PhD-Étudiant la recherche d'une chambre Bosoir Ma grande surprise est de lire votre mail javais reserver la chambre pour vous et la vous me dit vous avez trouver quelque chose je devrais vous demander un mois de loyer car vous me metais dans l enbarat j attend de votre reponce au plus vite Salutations ----Message d'origine---- De: UserNamesAllTaken Objet: Re: Réponse à votre annonce sur tutti.ch : PhD-Étudiant la recherche d'une chambre Salutations, Après le propriétaire précédent a annulé un contrat de location signé, je désespérais de trouver un endroit pour vivre à Genève. Avec seulement 1 semaine à gauche, j'ai dû prendre la première offre m'a donné - ce qui était le vôtre. Depuis, on m'a offert un studio, que je préférerais à louer. Donc je vous donne 30 jours de préavis. Je vais probablement aller en studio le jour de mon arrivée. Alors que nous n'avons pas un contrat écrit formel encore, je suis prêt à vous dédommager pour le temps en Janvier que la salle va sans locataire. J'espère que je ne vous ont pas trop dérangés. Cordialement, [Me] Greetings, After the previous landlord cancelled a signed rental contract, I was desperate to find a place to live in Geneva. With only 1 week left, I had to take the first offer I was given - which was yours. Since then, I was offered a studio apartment, which I would prefer to rent. Therefore I am giving you 30 days notice. I will probably move into the studio the day of my arrival. While we do not have a formal written contract yet, I am willing to compensate you for the time in January that the room goes without a renter. I hope I have not inconvenienced you too much. Regards, [Me]

Snoopy · #2 31.12.2011, 00:15

My take on this would be that without any written contract you would be a fool to send any money....

Anyway, Swiss rental law is fairly comprehensive and nobody expects "verbal agreements" for accommodation rentals.

My view is that without anything in writing no real agreement was really reached and that you owe the landlord nothing.

But I am sure there are others on here who will disagree.

Faltrad · #3 31.12.2011, 00:24

I would just write him back something like: Sorry that it is hard for you, but there is no legal agreement between us as it was impossible to meet you. The demand for accommodation being so high in the region, you will surely find quickly somebody to rent your room. Good luck.
Basta.

UserNamesAllTaken · #4 31.12.2011, 00:27

Well, e-mails are "written", but they are not formal contracts.
When I write in an e-mail "I'll take the apartment" or rather "Je vais prendre la chambre si elle est toujours disponible."

And a previous e-mail said:

	Quote:
	Le prix de la location est de 850Frs charge comprise dans la chambre vous avez internet tele un lit et une armoir une cotion de 600frs est demander avant votre arriver qui sera restituer a votre depart

One might argue that constitutes a contract. Of course, no duration was specified. No notice of termination requirement was specified, etc.

And of course there is the question of a moral obligation.
If the offer was legitimate, I think I probably owe him something for the inconvenience.
If he was trying to scam me the whole time, well then I can sleep easy without paying him anything.

cannut · #5 31.12.2011, 00:40

Western Union

I have a better idea ,send me the money I bring it to him

maybe or not

Scam

gata · #6 31.12.2011, 00:42

I would say you did enough. I didnt read the emais due to lack of french but western union screams scam. i wouldnt worry if i were you

Sbrinz · #7 31.12.2011, 00:52

The set-up does not look very professional does it?

I am pretty sure it is a scam, and he is not very good at it either. You have no contract that would stand up in a court of law anywhere, as you do not know where he lives, nor do you have proof of his real name. If you do feel bad about wasting his time: ask for his name, Swiss address, Swiss telephone and Swiss bank account number. If he cannot supply all four, and they are not verifiable, then don't send him any money.

This should solve the problem of scam / no-scam: write him the following,
Je souhaite recevoir un contrat de location pour ma signature avant que je vous envoie de l'argent.

In Switzerland if you like an apartment, you are invited to sign a contract with the agency. If you subsequently back out before signing the binding rental contract, then you have to pay about CHF 100 for wasting their time. After you sign the rental contract, you pay a deposit into YOUR locked bank account.

Bye the way, are you going to take action against the first landlord? You had a signed contract for a place to live in Anieres near Geneva, starting January 1st for 6 months. Are you not entitled to some compensation as they broke the contract?

UserNamesAllTaken · #8 31.12.2011, 01:28

I am probably entitled to some form of compensation.... but I'm not the type to make trouble when no malice was intended.
It seems they have some family trouble, if I can get a place sorted out, then I'll let bygones be bygones.

Somewhat funny story there, I forwarded their initial e-mail the the lab secretary so I wouldn't have to explain why I was again looking for a place to stay. The secretary must have hit "reply all", and in her response she made a comment that the initial landlord took offense to.

That e-mail exchange went like so:

	Quote:
	---First "landlord", to me--- Following a serious change in our program (4 members of my family are joining us in Geneva), the room we wanted to rent you won't be available after the beginning of February. Obvioulsy, you can come and spend the month of January with us if you need. This will give you the time to find another room elsewhere in Geneva. I hope this won't cause you too much troubles. Looking forward to reading you soon Best Regards ---Me, to Secretary--- Ms. [Secretary], Unfortunately the place I was going to live in Genéve will not be available after January. Therefore, I need to find another room by February. Could you again assist me in finding a new place? I have already placed a new announcement on tutti.ch, and I am responding to some advertisements i see on there. ---Secretary, to all--- Hello [Me] Too bad for this information just 10 days before your arrival in Geneva.You will find certainly an apartment with a correct landlord ---First Landlord, to all--- Madame, Je suis choqué par votre commentaire sous entendant que nous ne sommes pas correcte. Nous avons eu un impondérable de dernière minute qui nous oblige a libérer la chambre pour le début du mois de Février mais nous avons tout de même pris la peine d'assurer un mois de délai pour que M. Boehm puisse se retourner et trouver un autre logement en arrivant en Suisse. Nous aurions pu simplement indiquer que la chambre n'etait plus disponible sans autre explication ce que nous n'avons pas fait !!!! Je ne vous cache pas qu'aprés votre commentaire, j'aurai bien eu envie de ne pas donner suite mais comme il s'agit pour moi de rester correcte vis à vis de ce monsieur, nous conserverons, comme convenu avec lui, la disponibilité de la chambre pour le mois de janvier (a moins d'une alternative d'ici là). Ainsi, nous n'en ferons pas une victime de votre commentaire !!!!! Salutations ---me--- Ms. [Landlord] I am sorry if you were offended by the comments of [secretary]. I do not know why she even sent the to e-mail you as well. I simply forwarded your e-mail so I would not have to explain to her why I was again looking for an apartment. I understand that certain things happen that are beyond our control. I appreciate that you are still willing to allow me to stay in your place for January. ---First landlord--- Dear [Me], you're welcome and again I am sorry for this lat minute change, it's indeed really beyond my control. Merry Christmas

Faltrad · #9 31.12.2011, 01:31

Frankly, if he wants money from you, full bank details to make a virement/Geldüberweisung to his bank account is the least he can give you to start with.
I pay my (legal) cleaning lady like that, it's all transparent.

But I wouldn't pay anything to somebody I've never met in the first place.

Corbets · #10 31.12.2011, 07:31

In 6 years here, I've never seen a legit use of Western Union. It's possible they exist, but if you send this guy money that way, don't come back here later looking for sympathy!

As Sbrinz said, the standard (and I think even legally required, though I'm not 100% sure about that) way to set up a deposit is in a bank account that is in YOUR name, but from which funds can only be released upon agreement by both parties. Rent is a different matter, that would go directly to his bank account.

Tell him that you are unwilling to send any money until he sends you a signed contract and gives you his bank account details. If he continues to refuse, then simply tell him that you consider this a refusal of your offer and let it rest.

As for the secretary / landlord issue... well, it's pretty uncommon here for someone to cancel the rental contract like that. If you had a 1 month termination period, then he's in the clear - but most Swiss I know would be pretty offended with something like that (meaning the short term cancellation), and would probably raise holy hell about it. After all, if you stay there for a month, you then have a whole new round of moving costs as well, and as you're learning, the housing market is incredibly tight here.

I recommend WG-Zimmer.ch. Find a shared flat for the time being, as those have the most fluidity.

Good luck!

UserNamesAllTaken · #11 31.12.2011, 18:24

I would have never paid a deposit or first months rent via western union.
I know better than that.
This isn't about a deposit, rent, or contract per se.
His first mention of western union was when I voluntarily backed out, but offered some form of compensation. In this case, I wouldn't be expecting anything in return. The "security" of the payment method he chooses isn't so important in that case, as either way I expect nothing.
But it does seem to confirm a feeling I was getting that something wasn't quite right. I mean really, who uses Western Union to receive money in Switzerland?
As far as I know the only legitimate use of it is to send money to family in another country who are relatively poor and don't have a bank account.

I simply want to know if I wasted this guy's time, or if he was wasting mine trying to scam me the whole time.

bigblue2 · #12 31.12.2011, 18:28

its simple to spot a scam, they all say western union, end of

walk away and thank your lucky stars you didn't send any money

Snoopy · #13 31.12.2011, 18:40

	Quote:	Corbets
	As for the secretary / landlord issue... well, it's pretty uncommon here for someone to cancel the rental contract like that. If you had a 1 month termination period, then he's in the clear - but most Swiss I know would be pretty offended with something like that (meaning the short term cancellation), and would probably raise holy hell about it. After all, if you stay there for a month, you then have a whole new round of moving costs as well, and as you're learning, the housing market is incredibly tight here.

Actually the minimum legal notice for a furnished room is 2 weeks to the end of a month. (Code des Obligations art. 266e), so the initial landlord was well within his rights even if it was rather inconvenient.

Corbets · #14 31.12.2011, 20:09

	Quote:	Snoopy
	Actually the minimum legal notice for a furnished room is 2 weeks to the end of a month. (Code des Obligations art. 266e), so the initial landlord was well within his rights even if it was rather inconvenient.

Which doesn't really make my statement false, though I didn't account for the stuatory minimums, I grant you. My intent, poorly worded, was to say that if he had a longer cancellation period as is normal, then the landlord was outside the bounds, and that this might have been the secretary's assumption.

UserNamesAllTaken · #15 01.01.2012, 02:45

Well, he sent me an e-mail saying he went to Western Union hadn't received any money. This was only 19 hours after he told me to send him the money via Western Union.

Now he's threatening to report me to the Swiss Authorities.
I assume I have nothing to worry about, right?

	Quote:
	bONJOUR J etais claire est honnete avec vous je vois vous essayer de ne pas honnorer vos obligation dans ce cas je suis dans l obliigation de deposer plainte ,vous avez tout les renseignements sur moi je vous dit meme de vous renseigner aupres des autorité suisse je vois concernant mon colocataire il se trouve en vacances vous devais s avoirc est la fin de l année ca serre a rien de discuter avec vous plus que ca ok

(looks like he screwed up with the caps lock key)

Putting this drivel into google translate doesn't work too well, but he put in some commas that time (its an improvement)

Previous emails (oldest to newest), maybe someone can make sense of the misspelled drivel lacking punctuation, google translate doesn't do too well with it:

	Quote:
	---Scammer (19 hours after asking for payment via Western Union)--- Bonjour Apres diferents mail je vois que votre payement n est pas encore effectuer via wester union je conclut pas ????????? ---Me--- Je n'ai jamais envoyer de l'argent par Western Union. Il ya tellement de location et les escroqueries de dépôt où les gens demandent le paiement par Western Union. Je me demande maintenant si vous êtes un escroc. Vous avez sans doute aurait demandé le dépôt à payer par Western Union aussi! Vous ne m'a jamais envoyé un contrat pour la chambre. Nous n'avons pas de contrat écrit officiel. Vous ne m'avez jamais dit ce que le numéro de l'appartement était. Vous ne m'avez pas donné votre nom au complet jusqu'à ce que tu voulais de l'argent envoyé par Western Union. Si j'ai envoyé de l'argent pour vous par Western Union, vous pourriez facilement dire que vous ne le recevez pas, et demander plus d'argent si j'avais une obligation légale de vous envoyer de l'argent. Si votre offre est légitime. La demande de logements est tellement élevé dans la région que vous aurez sûrement trouver rapidement quelqu'un pour louer votre chambre. Je ne peux imaginer pourquoi vous voudriez me faire parvenir l'argent par Western Union. Alors vous devenez très impatiente, attend que l'argent soit là le 19 heures plus tard. Toute cette situation ne semble pas légitime, et je pense que vous avez perdu mon temps. Salutations ---Scammer--- Bonjour WESTER UNION ETE LE PLUS RAPIDE ET UNE CHOSE JE NE VOUS PERMET PAS DE ME DIRE QUE JE SUIS UN ESCROT VOUS AVIEZ MON NON ET PRENON ET MON ADRESSE JE VOUS DEMANDE POUR LA DERNIER FOIS D ASSURER VOTRE EREUR CONCERNANT LA LOCATION SINON JE DEPOSE PLAITE AVEC PREUVE DE VOTRE RECERVATION DE MAIL JE VOUS TRANSMET MON NUMERO DU CREDIT SUISSE POUR LE DEPOT CAR VOUS ASSUMER VOTRE EN ERREUR J ATTEND VOTRE PROPOSITION DE RENPOURSSEMENT sALUTATIONS PS VOUS AVEZ NON NOM VOUS POUVEZ DEMANDER AU AUTORITE SUISSE TOUT ME CONCERNANT ET VOUS ALLEZ VOIR SI JE SUIS UN ESCROT JE NE VOUS PERMET PAS DE ME DIRE CELA OK ---Me--- Je ne peux pas comprendre que le dernier message. Sauf que vous avez été offensé que je pensais que vous pourriez être un escroc parce que vous voulez utiliser "Western Union" pour le paiement du loyer. * Yat-il une raison quelconque vous ne pouvez pas utiliser la bonne orthographe ou de ponctuation? * Vous n'avez pas utilisé un simple point ou une virgule dans aucune de vos messages. * Deux fois vous avez demandé des renseignements Je vous ai déjà donné. Pourquoi? faites-vous affaire avec plusieurs personnes et vous ne pouvez pas garder trace de vos conversations? * Vous n'avez toujours pas de fournir un contrat de location signé. * Vous prétendu avoir un colocataire qui parle anglais, mais je ne l'ai jamais vu - ne veut-il pas de savoir qui il était vivant avec? N'auriez-vous pas d'autres colocataires potentiels intéressés? * Vous n'avez jamais fourni une adresse exacte afin que je puisse même vérifier si vous aviez une pièce où vous avez demandé à l'avoir. * Ensuite, vous avez demandé pour le paiement par Western Union. Les loyers et le dépôt par Western Union est une arnaque bien connue: [links to websites about Western Union Rent Scams omitted] Il devrait certainement être compréhensible pourquoi j'aurais de sérieux doutes sur vous. Vous voulez versement et le paiement du loyer. Vous voulez le paiement par Western Union. Vous n'avez pas fourni un contrat écrit et signé. Vous n'avez pas fourni votre nom complet. Vous n'avez pas de fournir l'adresse complète. Je n'ai aucune obligation légale de vous envoyer quelque chose. Je pourrais choisir de le faire pour des raisons morales, si vous avez été éloquent et poli - et si je croyais votre offre était légitime. Cependant, de nombreux signes d'une escroquerie sont apparus, et je ne pense pas que je n'ai aucune obligation morale de vous. ---Scammer--- See the first quoted post

I'm glad I kept looking, otherwise I'd probably only now be realizing he's a scammer (when he'd be asking for payment for the deposit and first month's rent via Western Union and probably still wouldn't have provided a contract with the full address), and I'd have no place to live.

The grammar, lack of punctuation, use of Caps Lock, and western Union have pretty much finalized the diagnosis of scammer.

gata · #16 01.01.2012, 04:46

I dont think you have anything to worry about. If he insists tell him to give you swiss account to deposut the money as other people said. Or easier still. Ignore him. I very much doubt he can report you anywhere

rootkit · #17 02.01.2012, 03:27

I'd say, don't waste anymore time on this guy.
Even if he's not a scammer, he is certainly a do...e: threaten to report you after you offered to send him money you don't owe him is just unbelievable.

Anyway, I'm sure he's eager to go to the authorities and let them know he refused to provide a valid bank account number to receive money, preferring to use Western Union instead