Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Housing in general
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 20.02.2013, 13:52
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Geneva
Posts: 227
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 60 Times in 39 Posts
TuxedoPants has earned some respectTuxedoPants has earned some respect
Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

I rented an apartment under a sublet contract for 6 months. Now the girl I rented it from is trying to charge me for a whole bunch of things. She said a hairdryer is missing, which I never took!. and she's charging me for 3 hours of cleaning. I had a cleaning woman come and clean for at least 4 hours. The place was spotless when I moved out. Not to mention she's charging me for any pots and pans that have scratch marks on it. ALSO, I found out that the agency charges her 100 CHF less than what she charged me per month on the sublet contract. Now she's sent me one of those small orange bills to pay at the postfinance and she sent a document of the list of damages to the Mietgericht und Schlichtungsbehörde. How can I stop this money hungry person?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:04
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,089
Groaned at 391 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 1,887 Times in 1,009 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has made some interesting contributions
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

I found out that the agency charges her 100 CHF less than what she charged me per month on the sublet contract.

Baaaad!


Google translate it:
http://magazine.immostreet.ch/fr/200...t-ses-limites/


Basically go to the office that can defend you, or go to court yourself...

(such as ASLOCA and all that).
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank CorsebouTheReturn for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:06
The_Love_Doctor's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Zugerberg, Zug
Posts: 2,736
Groaned at 65 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 2,407 Times in 1,154 Posts
The_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

1. Dispute.
2. Counter offer.
3. Pay.
4. Learn lesson for the future ensuring handover protocol etc.

PS: She can charge CHF100 for furniture / pots and pans you were using etc. Nothing you can do there.
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank The_Love_Doctor for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:16
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,089
Groaned at 391 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 1,887 Times in 1,009 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has made some interesting contributions
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

Ha there's a BUT:

sous-loyer est beaucoup plus élevé que celui du bail principal (même si une légère hausse est admissible par exemple si le logement est sous-loué meublé) ;


It says that a light increase in the "sublet rent" is acceptable, for example if the property is furnished...


I've heard different version somewhere else (that it's forbidden to subrent more) but here seems to clearly say it's ok...

I guess 100CHF is possibly a "small increase".
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank CorsebouTheReturn for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:20
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,089
Groaned at 391 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 1,887 Times in 1,009 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has made some interesting contributions
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

Quote:
View Post
1. Dispute.

PS: She can charge CHF100 for furniture / pots and pans you were using etc. Nothing you can do there.
Yeah,
But I was looking for the law, not for "she can" based on subjective information.


Also, if I remember, they was a story of creating a separate contract, for the "furnitures, pans and pots". But can't find that info yet.

But it seems you are right, the law mention that the person subletting can increase slightly the rent for "furnitures".
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank CorsebouTheReturn for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:22
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,089
Groaned at 391 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 1,887 Times in 1,009 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has made some interesting contributions
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

Quote:
View Post
1. Dispute.
2. Counter offer.
3. Pay.
4. Learn lesson for the future ensuring handover protocol etc.

PS: She can charge CHF100 for furniture / pots and pans you were using etc. Nothing you can do there.
Based on the above and the law, what this person says is probably the best course of action. Forget the court or anything, you don't have much arguments in your side, and the "sub letter" has not done so much wrong.

Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank CorsebouTheReturn for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:29
The_Love_Doctor's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Zugerberg, Zug
Posts: 2,736
Groaned at 65 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 2,407 Times in 1,154 Posts
The_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

Quote:
View Post
Based on the above and the law, what this person says is probably the best course of action. Forget the court or anything, you don't have much arguments in your side, and the "sub letter" has not done so much wrong.

I would also add that if the OP has 3rd party liability insurance she could just discuss options with her insurance. If the bill is under CHF500.- they will pay it without discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:29
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Geneva
Posts: 227
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 60 Times in 39 Posts
TuxedoPants has earned some respectTuxedoPants has earned some respect
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

What you wrote was in French though and perhaps the laws vary from canton to canton? I am hoping that in Zurich it is the other one you mentioned of it being forbidden to raise the subrent.

Quote:
View Post
Yeah,
But I was looking for the law, not for "she can" based on subjective information.


Also, if I remember, they was a story of creating a separate contract, for the "furnitures, pans and pots". But can't find that info yet.

But it seems you are right, the law mention that the person subletting can increase slightly the rent for "furnitures".
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:30
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,008
Groaned at 388 Times in 306 Posts
Thanked 13,918 Times in 5,506 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

Surely the amount she charged in extra per month would cover things like scratch pans?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Nil for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:33
The_Love_Doctor's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Zugerberg, Zug
Posts: 2,736
Groaned at 65 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 2,407 Times in 1,154 Posts
The_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

Quote:
View Post
Surely the amount she charged in extra per month would cover things like scratch pans?
Not necessarily unless specified in the contract.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:36
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,089
Groaned at 391 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 1,887 Times in 1,009 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has made some interesting contributions
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

Quote:
View Post
What you wrote was in French though and perhaps the laws vary from canton to canton? I am hoping that in St. Gallen it is the other one you mentioned of it being forbidden to raise the subrent.
Sorry I expected you to google translate the 1st link, and then you would have seen they talk about item 262 of "code des obligations" (Swiss Law).

Then googling it leads to: http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/rs/220/index2.html

Again, google it, the "english" option in the admin.ch website often does not have the translation.

Basically it's federal law, so it would apply to all cantons.

I looked many items in that law and could not find clearly the "subletting rent increase".

So based on the numerous other information (such as http://magazine.immostreet.ch/fr/200...t-ses-limites/ and many others I found)....

I'd say that 100CHF is certainly not a big difference and could fit in the "allowed" amount. I haven't found exactly the law, though.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank CorsebouTheReturn for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:43
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Geneva
Posts: 227
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 60 Times in 39 Posts
TuxedoPants has earned some respectTuxedoPants has earned some respect
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

I understand what it's saying now but it seems contradictory to me. On one hand it's saying " La sous-location ne saurait constituer un moyen pour le locataire d’utiliser la propriété du bailleur à long terme pour en faire une source de revenu personnelle."

Translation: The sublease can not be a means for the tenant to use the property long-term donor as a source of personal income.

Then later as you mentioned it says the rent can be higher if for instance it's furnished. Yet I feel like it's for personal income because she could easily use some of this money to buy herself a new pot, lamp, pan, cleaning but instead she is charging me for all these things.

Quote:
View Post
Sorry I expected you to google translate the 1st link, and then you would have seen they talk about item 262 of "code des obligations" (Swiss Law).

Then googling it leads to: http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/rs/220/index2.html

Again, google it, the "english" option in the admin.ch website often does not have the translation.

Basically it's federal law, so it would apply to all cantons.

I looked many items in that law and could not find clearly the "subletting rent increase".

So based on the numerous other information (such as http://magazine.immostreet.ch/fr/200...t-ses-limites/ and many others I found)....

I'd say that 100CHF is certainly not a big difference and could fit in the "allowed" amount. I haven't found exactly the law, though.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at TuxedoPants for this post:
  #13  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:48
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,089
Groaned at 391 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 1,887 Times in 1,009 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has made some interesting contributions
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

Quote:
View Post
What you wrote was in French though and perhaps the laws vary from canton to canton? I am hoping that in Zurich it is the other one you mentioned of it being forbidden to raise the subrent.
I don't see anything, the law seems to be too generic.

Questions: did the person subletting his flat with furnitures? (means was it furnished)..

If YES, then probably forget it.
If NO, then that person might have some hard time justifying the rent increase.
But you'll have some hard time reclaiming that...


One other idea is the "Etat des Lieux" (the document mentionning in writing the state of the flat prior you moved in).

Have you signed such document?
If YES, then its clear and simple: anything is less good than mentioned then, you'll have to pay/fix/repair.
If NO, then you can probably contest on the basis that you give back the property in the same state as you moved in- (difficult to prove, but it's not necessarily you to prove it)...


In short, follow the other person advices... make a kind of deal and learn from your mistakes (not having made an "etat des lieux" for example; not knowing the law about subletting and furnitures, etc...).
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:50
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 7,987
Groaned at 73 Times in 65 Posts
Thanked 5,687 Times in 2,984 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

You will not win any fight over 100CHF/month rental increase. This is by no means an extra income.

This is an acceptable increase based on the fact that you are renting the use of her stuff. Using her stuff doesn't mean you can ruin her stuff. You need to give it back in the state that you found it.

So, if you scratched her pans you need to buy her replacement pans. Just make sure she is buying the same pans and not some super expensive pans.

And she should have given you the opportunity to clean what was not cleaned. Did she provide evidence that the place wasn't clean and that there were scratches on the pans?
__________________
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank miniMia for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 20.02.2013, 14:56
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,089
Groaned at 391 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 1,887 Times in 1,009 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has made some interesting contributions
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

Quote:
View Post
I understand what it's saying now but it seems contradictory to me.
The sublease can not be a means for the tenant to use the property long-term donor as a source of personal income.

Then later as you mentioned it says the rent can be higher if for instance it's furnished. Yet I feel like it's for personal income because she could easily use some of this money to buy herself a new pot, lamp, pan, cleaning but instead she is charging me for all these things.
Yes. It is contradictory.
The law says one thing, and the websites says another. There's a few that seems to indicate that there is a minor variation in the law allowed, only based on the "small increase".
The small increase is about furniture... and yes, I suppose if it's higher price then it means it should cover "fair use"...

Problem is probably none of you have made an "Etat des lieux". So you can not agree on the "conditions" where you moved in VS when you left".


So, I think that the double charge (increase + cost of new items) are not appropriate- But I don't know how you can contest that.

Probably those associations are best in that case.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 20.02.2013, 15:00
quark's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Aargh-Ow!
Posts: 1,363
Groaned at 13 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 1,838 Times in 756 Posts
quark has a reputation beyond reputequark has a reputation beyond reputequark has a reputation beyond reputequark has a reputation beyond reputequark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

This is the second thread of yours where the easiest and most useful thing you can do is join your local Mieterverband/ASLOCA and ask them for expert guidance and support.

It's not expensive. Go and join already!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 20.02.2013, 15:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,089
Groaned at 391 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 1,887 Times in 1,009 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has made some interesting contributions
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

Quote:
View Post
You will not win any fight over 100CHF/month rental increase. This is by no means an extra income.

This is an acceptable increase based on the fact that you are renting the use of her stuff. Using her stuff doesn't mean you can ruin her stuff. You need to give it back in the state that you found it.

So, if you scratched her pans you need to buy her replacement pans. Just make sure she is buying the same pans and not some super expensive pans.


And she should have given you the opportunity to clean what was not cleaned. Did she provide evidence that the place wasn't clean and that there were scratches on the pans?
Not true! You forget "fair use". Minor scratches are quite likely acceptable-
There's a law about that:
Art. 267


P. Restitution de la chose
I. En général
1 A la fin du bail, le locataire doit restituer la chose dans l’état qui résulte d’un usage conforme au contrat.

At the end of the lease, the one renting must give back the things in the state that is resulting from an usage compliant with the contract.

Something like that.

The problem here is they have [probably] not signed any "etat des lieux" so it might be conflicting.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 20.02.2013, 15:02
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Geneva
Posts: 227
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 60 Times in 39 Posts
TuxedoPants has earned some respectTuxedoPants has earned some respect
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

No there wasn't any Etat des Lieux type of document. I told her I will have a lawyer tend to this matter if she wants to pursue it. I hope that'll stop her.
Quote:
View Post
You will not win any fight over 100CHF/month rental increase. This is by no means an extra income.

This is an acceptable increase based on the fact that you are renting the use of her stuff. Using her stuff doesn't mean you can ruin her stuff. You need to give it back in the state that you found it.

So, if you scratched her pans you need to buy her replacement pans. Just make sure she is buying the same pans and not some super expensive pans.

And she should have given you the opportunity to clean what was not cleaned. Did she provide evidence that the place wasn't clean and that there were scratches on the pans?
Quote:
View Post
I don't see anything, the law seems to be too generic.

Questions: did the person subletting his flat with furnitures? (means was it furnished)..

If YES, then probably forget it.
If NO, then that person might have some hard time justifying the rent increase.
But you'll have some hard time reclaiming that...


One other idea is the "Etat des Lieux" (the document mentionning in writing the state of the flat prior you moved in).

Have you signed such document?
If YES, then its clear and simple: anything is less good than mentioned then, you'll have to pay/fix/repair.
If NO, then you can probably contest on the basis that you give back the property in the same state as you moved in- (difficult to prove, but it's not necessarily you to prove it)...


In short, follow the other person advices... make a kind of deal and learn from your mistakes (not having made an "etat des lieux" for example; not knowing the law about subletting and furnitures, etc...).
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 20.02.2013, 15:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 3,089
Groaned at 391 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 1,887 Times in 1,009 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has made some interesting contributions
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

A last contribution, before you contact those associations or follow the advices about contest/moving on:


Art. 267 a

II. Checking the status of the thing and notice to the tenant

1 When returning, the lessor must check the condition of it and immediately notify the tenant of the defects which it meets.

2 If the landlord fails to do so, the tenant is relieved of any liability, unless either of defects that could not be found using the usual checks.

3 If the landlord later discovered defects of this kind, he must immediately notify the tenant.

It's quite important because it clearly says you are relieved of any liability.
(I doubt one can contest the USUAL CHECK thing, especially for the cleanliness of the flat).

Ok, probably seek advice to those associations, and present them those information,,,
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank CorsebouTheReturn for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 20.02.2013, 15:14
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Geneva
Posts: 227
Groaned at 15 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 60 Times in 39 Posts
TuxedoPants has earned some respectTuxedoPants has earned some respect
Re: Unfair Charges (Sublet Problem)

Thanks a lot for the information. I am just worried about this postfinance bill she sent me for the total cost. What would happen if I don't pay her petty bill?

Quote:
View Post
A last contribution, before you contact those associations or follow the advices about contest/moving on:


Art. 267 a

II. Checking the status of the thing and notice to the tenant

1 When returning, the lessor must check the condition of it and immediately notify the tenant of the defects which it meets.

2 If the landlord fails to do so, the tenant is relieved of any liability, unless either of defects that could not be found using the usual checks.

3 If the landlord later discovered defects of this kind, he must immediately notify the tenant.

It's quite important because it clearly says you are relieved of any liability.
(I doubt one can contest the USUAL CHECK thing, especially for the cleanliness of the flat).

Ok, probably seek advice to those associations, and present them those information,,,
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Orange SMS problem ( problem sending to a Chinese number ) wiseben TV/internet/telephone 12 05.09.2012 13:32
which bank charges the least bank charges for new account dreamcatcher Finance/banking/taxation 6 06.12.2011 10:36
Unfair dismissal lynnecon Employment 77 16.09.2011 08:31
Is it legal to sublet a sublet ? vincentafrica Housing in general 9 19.05.2011 15:07
Advice needed on how to fight unfair medical charges ccmiller Insurance 3 15.10.2007 19:34


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0