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Old 10.08.2008, 08:58
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Kitchen replacement

I searched through the housing threads and there does not appear to be one about installing a new kitchen.

This is the next renovation project for me in my 60 year old house.
Yesterday, I was in Dogern in Germany (5K from Waldshutte) and I have ordered a new kitchen from Möbel Markt.

The display kitchen, which was almost the cheapest in the place, was about 5000 Euro (about 8000 CHF) which included a bit of granite work surface.
After supplying the sales lady with my kitchen dimensions (it is quite a small kitchen), the inclusive price was 18,000 CHF (which included the VAT / M.W.S rebate, fitting and providing a plan for the electrician and plumber).
This is about 225 percent higher than the advertised price.

I asked the lady to change the original Granite to simulated granite work surfaces and the price came down to 15,000 CHF

I must now demolish my old kitchen, remove all the old tiles, replaster, tile the floor, arrange and pay for an electrician and plumber, order a skip etc, which I guess will the hardest proportion of the work and if I am lucky I may be able to manage for about 6000 CHF.

My point is that I think it is a little unfair that these places - including IKEA and Fust - are allowed to advertise prices which have zero relationship to what they are selling.

I eventually paid the lady, because it the cheapest quote I have seen in the last 6 months and I need to finish my kitchen by the end of October. Also she was very knowlegable and pleasant and the kitchen itself was just what I wanted.

Now my 3 questions.

Has anyone else had experience in in this area?
Does anyone know any really cheap electrician in Kanton Aargau?
Has anyone found a DIY person who would do the whole project by themselves - for a reasonable price. I think the co-ordination element is the hardest - having to take so many half days off work.
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Old 10.08.2008, 10:05
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Re: Kitchen replacement

Hi There,

I've not had a kitchen make over, but I have had all the windows in my house replaced and an attick conversion done. And my conclusion is that builders/trades men are the same all over - same tricks and the same issues.

The most common thing I have found it that they quote you once price at the start and then once they get the job the price starts to go up. The two usual excuses are the either the job is bigger than the thought or that it would really be better if the used more expensive materials. Either way you need to watch the price creep.

It really is very time consuming, you have to check everything yourself if you want to get the job done the way you want it. There are people who offer a service to manage the whole thing for you, but as far as I have seen this is only an advantage if you don't speak the language - otherwise you just end up check on a different person....

Good luck with the project,

Jim
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Old 10.08.2008, 11:56
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Re: Kitchen replacement

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My point is that I think it is a little unfair that these places - including IKEA and Fust - are allowed to advertise prices which have zero relationship to what they are selling.
I think that if you look carefully, their ads will contain a tiny "ab" meaning "from"; the prices are probably accurate if your kitchen is as small as some of the ones I've come across in apartment hunting.

Quote:
Does anyone know any really cheap electrician in Kanton Aargau?
Has anyone found a DIY person who would do the whole project by themselves - for a reasonable price. I think the co-ordination element is the hardest - having to take so many half days off work.
I do know an electrician, but I'll have to check his availability. I'll drop you a PM in the next day or two.

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I've not had a kitchen make over, but I have had all the windows in my house replaced and an attick conversion done. And my conclusion is that builders/trades men are the same all over - same tricks and the same issues.
That was my conclusion too when my Swiss boss told us his kitchen renovation experiences. He really had to oversee the job himself.
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Old 10.08.2008, 12:00
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Re: Kitchen replacement

Apparently, in Germany, everyone who rents takes their kitchen with them.

I would have thought that there must be "kitchen all-rounders" who do installations and tweaking of electrics and plumbing and a bit of tiling for non rich people who are moving home.

Also, in germany, I think creeping prices goes hand in hand with swiss number plates - they think that you have a bag of gold in your boot.

Unfortunately, my German lets me down in my Google serach.

Last edited by jbrady; 10.08.2008 at 12:33.
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Old 10.08.2008, 12:21
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Re: Kitchen replacement

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Hi There,

I've not had a kitchen make over, but I have had all the windows in my house replaced and an attick conversion done. And my conclusion is that builders/trades men are the same all over - same tricks and the same issues.

Jim
My next project wiill be new roof and adding a couple of Dorma extensions.
I would appreciate any info / costs /contacts of roof extensions here in CH- especially the Gemeinde element (checking if it is allowed and seeing if neighbours agree).

I did one 6 years ago with a friend in Northern England - cost about 4000 pounds and was not so difficult really.

My main goal is not to waste money - quality is OK but not perfectionism, as well as been legal.
Was semi thinking about making the roof all Solar panels - it sometimes is cheaper than tiles.
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Old 10.08.2008, 20:47
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Re: Kitchen replacement

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My next project wiill be new roof and adding a couple of Dorma extensions.
I would appreciate any info / costs /contacts of roof extensions here in CH- especially the Gemeinde element (checking if it is allowed and seeing if neighbours agree).
Where abouts are you? I'm near Olten and I can give you details of the firm we used.

In any case I expect that it will be worth getting at least one session with a local Civil Engineer to at least find out what the rules are.

From a tax point of view you should also check out what you are allowed to deduct and how the changes will impact the value of the house for capital tax purpose.

Best Regards,

Jim
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Old 10.08.2008, 21:21
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Re: Kitchen replacement

Just a comment about making the roof solar panels, remember: You're in switzerland. If you're making changes to the outside of the building you might want to check with the local authorities to see if it's approved.
I think there are certain places where they don't let you have solar panels (who knows why)
Good luck with the kitchen!
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Old 10.08.2008, 22:09
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Re: Kitchen replacement

We renovated our kitchen around 10 years ago and bought kitchen cabinets, granite surface cut to fit (lovely, by the way - the best decision we made!), new microwave, sink and other bits and pieces with Möbel Markt Dogern as well. We kept our "old" dishwasher and gas cooker, so everything had to be fit around them.

We had a Swiss company coordinating the rest with bathroom renovation, tiling, electrics, plumbing etc.

What I can say is, that of all of the companies involved, Möbel Markt was the most efficient, on-time, on-budget, precise and careful in installing. We were given excellent advice when buying and deciding what we actually needed. They worked quickly and were agreeable workers. I would use them again, and I would recommend them to others too, though I usually prefer to consider local services.

I cannot comment on your prices - a lot depends on the cost of labour, which is of course higher here in Switzerland.

I have an acquaintance who bought an IKEA kitchen, but had it installed / assembled by a local carpenter instead of using the IKEA guys. Apparently, she saved around CHF 5'000.- doing it that way. So, if you do go the "IKEA" path, that may be something to consider.

NB: A neighbour of ours has an IKEA kitchen and after 10 years it looks a lot more worn out than ours from Möbel Markt Dogern.
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Old 11.08.2008, 06:27
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Re: Kitchen replacement

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Where abouts are you? I'm near Olten and I can give you details of the firm we used.

In any case I expect that it will be worth getting at least one session with a local Civil Engineer to at least find out what the rules are.

From a tax point of view you should also check out what you are allowed to deduct and how the changes will impact the value of the house for capital tax purpose.

Best Regards,

Jim
I am in Schinznach Bad - I would be interested in getting at least a quote for the roof, but it would be next Summer/Autumn before I would do this work. First I must pay for my kitchen.
I use an accountant for my tax - she suggests that i wait until after I have been in the house for 5 years (Summer 2009), then it is easier to claim back on rennovation work.
Perhaps you could PM me details of your firm.
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Old 11.08.2008, 11:32
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Re: Kitchen replacement

I know a builder/renovation company based in Umiken. Owner speaks excellent English and the son is an electrician.

http://www.immo-aargau.ch/Dienstleis...Renovation.htm

Good luck!
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Old 11.08.2008, 11:57
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Re: Kitchen replacement

My experience is that whenever you try to cut corners you regret it, both in finish and financially.

6k to prep a room sounds doable. What are the dimensions?
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Old 11.08.2008, 12:02
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Re: Kitchen replacement

jbrady,

Did you cheak out Peachy's plum thread here??

I wouldn't go for the cheapest when renovating. It will always look the cheapest...
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Old 11.08.2008, 13:13
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Re: Kitchen replacement

After 5 years and renovating 3 old houses, in Scotland and France, I would say that unless you know what you're doing, leave it to the pro's. You'll get a better job, quicker and on budget investing your time in project managing it rather than geting stuck in. Take recommendations from people, and check out the finished product if you can. CHF 18,000 is a lot of dough, and spoiling it with a cowboy job could work out much cheaper and stressfull in the long term, and don't dive into the cheapest quote, there may well be a reason it's cheap. Doing little thing like ensuring materials are on site, that trades work logically to avoid downtime and repetition, you doing any supply runs, checking before the tradesmen leave what's the programme for the next day and is everything set for it.....bottom line you should be paying for work not, trips to a supplier etc. Keep on top of that and you'll save money and time, and never be afraid to ask why if they are doing something that doesn't seem right.

On the original appliance front, dishwashers are normally a standard size, however they can differ. If yours isn't a standard size (600mm) then you will have to watch the space. Ditto with the cooker, they come in a variety of sizes, so again bare that in mind, as if they fail in the future fitting something into the hole may be an issue.

Good luck with your works, and an open EF invite to put it through it's paces
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Old 13.08.2008, 13:26
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Re: Kitchen replacement

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My experience is that whenever you try to cut corners you regret it, both in finish and financially.

6k to prep a room sounds doable. What are the dimensions?
It is less than 3 metres by 3 metres - hopefully you are right

Someone on EF has contacted me and I will see him tomorrow. Hopefully, he can do all the prep jobs, then my life will become simple.
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