After living in CH for 2 years and 5 months (2 years and 2 months in my present flat), I had my first uncomfortable experience with a Swiss person, i.e. my landlady. So here is my story...

I'm renting a small flat (1 bedroom, living room, kitchen and bathroom) from a widow in her mid 70's who lives in the same building as I do. From the first moment I met her, I knew that she's a strict woman, but the flat was reasonably cheap and in a good neighborhood so I thought I'd take the risk. My husband is in working in Germany and he visits me once a month and stays 2-3 nights. Approx. 7 days in a month I'm at his place in Germany.

About a month ago, I met my landlady in the bus and told her that I am expecting a baby by the end of 2007. I asked her if it'd be OK if I stay in the flat with the baby since the contract states it is a flat for a single unmarried person. She said it's OK, but I sensed a bit of unexcitement in her voice. A few minutes later she asked me "what will you do with the baby if you are working?". Honestly I didn't think it's any of her business how I manage my baby, but out of courtesy I answered "My mother will come for a month or so in the beginning to help me out with the baby. I will be moving to Germany anyway by mid of next year". Not much was said since then until yesterday evening.

I came home and found a note in my post box. My landlady wanted to see me. So I went to her flat. As soon as she opened her flat door, she said "didn't I tell you to come to see me after our short conversation in the bus?" I really didn't remember she said anything in the bus about more needed conversation between her and myself. As far as I'm concern, as long as I can stay in the flat with the baby then that's it. It didn't take long for her to get to the point. She warned me that she didn't want a bunch of people staying in my flat when the baby comes (husband, mother, brother, sister, relatives from Germany, etc.). She said the flat is rented for one person and I should not abuse it. She went on saying that I didn't tell her before I signed the contract that I'd be getting married a month later (I didn't think it's a relevant information when I signed the contract since my husband is not living with me in the flat anyway). Then the highlight came "well, the baby is coming anyway. I don't know if it was an accident or a planned pregnancy, but you can stay in the flat until mid of 2008 at the latest". I was really angry. I told her "My husband and I are married more than 2 years now, and it IS a wanted child". I cannot believe she suggested the baby could have been an accident .

She added "did you tell Ms. Müller (the old woman living above my flat) that you are pregnant?" I answered I didn't tell anyone else in the building that I'm pregnant. She said "because Ms. Müller terminated her flat contract today... after 30 years living there. So I immediately thought maybe you told her that you were pregnant and she didn't want to deal with the baby's noise". Then she began gosipping about what Ms. Müller has in her flat.

As long as I lived in the flat, I have overnight stay max. 2-3 nights per month (my husband or my girlfriend from Zürich). Never had I had parties or invited more than 2 friends into my flat. I wanted clarity, so I made sure it was OK for my mother to stay in my flat for a month next year. The landlady said it's OK. Then I asked "is there anything else that you want me to know/do?". She thought a bit and said "actually there is one thing that I've wanted to tell you. Please clean the outer frame of your windows. You just need a cloth, water and some detergent, and clean the spider webs".

If it were not for the baby, I would not hesitate to terminate my contract ASAP. But I guess I have to hang in there until spring next year. I would just try to stay out of her way. So that's my story. Maybe it could inspire someone who is doing a flat hunt.

Hello grey_md,

Don't worry too much - it appears your landlady is, well, just a fickly old lady with too much time on her hands!

You're allowed to have friends over, even your mum can stay for a month, and your landlady can't chuck you out for that. You're also allowed to fall pregnant... (don't let her threaten you to throw you out for having a baby when the contract states "single unmarried person", she wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court).

She sounds like a horrible person alright... But please don't worry too much, and best of luck for the move to Germany.

Dani

You poor thing!!! As if it's not enough to deal with all the hormones you no doubt have flying around you have to put up with a spiteful old woman like that!!! Water off a ducks back....don't let her get to you

Sorry to hear about this - you have quite a lot of rights as a tenant, and maybe it is time for you to start exercising them. I expect you are going to have more problems from this woman.

My suggestions:

1. Document your encounters and conversations with this woman. A pain for sure, but this could come in handy later.
2. Join the Mietverband (like an association for renters rights). If you are a member they will give you advice, and if you need it they'll set their lawyers onto your landlady. Their website isn't in English but here it is: http://www.mieterverband.ch/

I'm already a member because I'm expecting a showdown with my landlord over a big hike in the rent coming soon...

Mark

@ Mark,
thanks for the suggestions. By point 1, would a hand-written record from my side be sufficient or do I need to get my landlady to sign the record? I've checked the mieterverband website. The membership fee is reasonable. I'll definitely consider joining it.

Hand written notes in a notebook are a good idea for a whole lot of reasons, and no, you don't need to get them signed.

Imagine you are in court and there is a conflict of stories. The crazy old woman is recalling her set of events and they differ from yours. Under cross examination you are asked how you recalled these facts. You simply respond that you documented them in your notebook at the time and produce the notebook. As long as it looks reasonably authentic your story will hold more weight, whether it is signed or not.

The point is, you've made an effort to document, which is more than your opponent will have done.

In other situations simply reminding someone that you've documented a previous conversation and your notes disagree with what they are saying to you will be enough to make them back down, after all, do they have a leg to stand on without some sort of record? Probably not.

It's just about covering your butt in an easy and simple way. You don't have to make it complicated.

I would suggest a pre-emptive strike, by writing a letter expressing your "concerns" to the tenants association (Mieteverband or whatever they are called.) It doesn't matter that they don't do anything, what is important is that have a dated record of your concerns received by a third party.

Then forgedd-about-dit and try to relax

dave

Hi.

I've had 2 x neighbours - both cranky old women threatening police action on me.

the first was my direct neighbour when I lived on my own - it was because I had an air conditioner.

the second was from a neighbour upstairs who complained about, and I quote, " laughing too much and too much night-time noise".

Needless to say, nothing came of either incident.

I figure they complain just so they get it off their chest - they don't like it so they tell you so. Much more insidious are those that call the police without even warning you first, e.g. party too loud.

Overall, I wouldn't worry at all!

hi grey_md, aargh...the perils of renting from an elderly person - who lives in the same building no less - as opposed to a big nameless real estate company who couldn't care less about the conditions of your window frames. I'm sorry to hear your story, I know first-hand that situations like these can be very upsetting. How cruel to be put down just for having a baby and trying to be considerate, and from someone who sounds thoughtless and uncaring.

Sounds as though she’s got an ax to grind anyway, perhaps because she thinks you hadn't been completely upfront with her by not saying you’d be getting married soon when you moved in, what with her having gone to such trouble bestow the flat on a single, unmarried person who she probably figured could be counted on to live there forever . Don’t get me wrong though: there is no excuse for her rudeness!

Her comments on whether your pregnancy was planned and her dishing about Frau Mueller upstairs are hurtful and innapropriate respectively. In terms of managing the situation now, I hope you can manage to counter her comments with something like, "that's not particularly relevant to what we're talking about," or some such. You and your husband have got so much to look forward to, it'd be a shame to let this meddlesome, thoughless woman spoil it.

I once made the same mistake of renting from an older women who lived upstairs. She made my life very miserable indeed and the narrow-minded pettiness eventually dragged me down. I moved out and am very glad to have done so. I was quiet, respectful 34-old. She wanted someone who would clean every day and spend an equal amount of time looking in the neighbours windows as she did.

My recommendation is to move away from the old cow. However, contact your local tenant's rights organisation as was mentioned before. For us in Suisse Romande it is www.asloca.ch I contacted them when my landlord was being unreasonable about repairs. They were simply great.

Good luck and congratulations on being pregnant.

Simon

Thanks for all the positive encouragements and suggestions .

I have applied for membership at the Mieterverband today. I would consult them on what my legal rights as a tenant are, especially related to my recent conversation with my landlady.

I have a feeling that even if I am legally right on a subject, my landlady can still make my life difficult with demands or insensitive comments if she feels like it (mental terror?). If all things go the way she wants them, then she can be really sweet. But as soon as something doesn't fit her likes/dislikes, she can be a very uncomfortable person to be around.

Since I plan to move out next year, I just try my best to find out what my rights are, exert them if needed and avoid meeting / having a chat with my landlady. I used to have small chats with her when I met her in the corridor. Partly because I felt sorry for her being by herself since her husband passed away last year. Come to think about it, she's had always something bad to say about the past and present tenants (she definitely has something bad to say about me as well ). Now that I got a real taste of what she's capable of, I won't give her anymore of my time/attention. I pay my rent & bills on time, do what a good tenant should do, and that's it.

She does not sound like a proper terrible person, just a bored old lady with pretty strict rules of life. I would suggest to sweeten her up, you're having a baby, she is a woman and unless she is made of stone, she is bound to find some empathy with you. The last thing you need, when pregant, is to go at war with her overy misplaced noseyness or windows frames cleaning.

She reminds me of the landlady of a B&B I stayed in the Outer Hebrides

One thing I can ensure you is that the demand of cleaning your windowframes is hot air you must not oblige to that!!

During the time of your contract you can clean or not , as you please in that flat,of course upon moving out you would have to hand the flat back impeccably cleaned. But that's the tenants fortune ( or curse) in Switzerland.

However, I am not 100% sure,but as a landlady myself I do have some other & more insights into things like that.

As you signed the contract where it clearly states the flat is rented out to a single unmarried person,this could be looked at as breach of contract on your side according to swiss 'Obligationenrecht' (how is this called in english?).
Because not only did you get married but now you are pregnant as well and this makes you definitely not a single person ( and inhabitant of the flat) anymore.

I don't want to shoot with a cannon on sparrows,but I think it would be wise to collect as much info as you can regarding both sides, before taking any action at all.

But with the patter of tiny feet soon to be hard in your life, maybe it'll be not too bad an idea to look for a bigger flat anyway.

I hope you will find a solution to this problem that will be acceptable for all parties.
Wihsing you all the best for your pregnancy,enjoy this wonderful miracle in a womans life!

We've had horrible landlords before (we even caught them stealing our mail out of the mailbox :-) but fortunately you're very well protected by the law in such things.

1. Unless you regularly make lots of noise during the "Ruhezeiten" (the hours of rest as defined in the rules of the house you signed together with your contract), you can be as noisy as you want.

2. No matter how the apartment was described (e.g. being intended for one person only etc.) - that description isn't part of your contract. Having guests over in your apartment is legal. You can have as many people over for as long as you want as long as you stick to the rules of the house in terms of noise. You can also have your husband move in with your permanently. The only thing you probably can't do is charging people for living in your apartment.

2. A baby is NEVER a legal reason for kicking someone out, no matter when and how long it cries. If she complains because of the noise, tell her to go ahead and call the police. They'll be laughing their butts off.

dawiz

Finally there is an insight from the other side .

I understand that my contract puts me legally on the weak side, because I got married after I signed the contract (though my husband lives and works in Germany, comes to me max. once per month, thus I don't see that it causes any inconvenience to the landlady) and I will have a baby in December.

There are some organizations who rent out furnished room for flexible term. One is available starting 1.10.07. They allow me to stay there even after my baby arrives. The kitchen and bathroom are shared with 3 other people. I was considering this possibility, but I saw the room is on the 3rd floor with narrow staircase (no lift in the building) which would pose more inconvenience when I am near my due date or later on when I have to carry my baby and my grocery bags. My current flat is on the ground floor and the laundry room is next door. Thus I prefer to stay in my current flat (peacefully and "legally") if I can .

Therefore I asked my landlady way in advance (8th week into the pregnancy) if I am allowed to stay with the baby (and my mom who'd come for a month) in the flat until I move back to Germany mid of 2008. I think it is more of a matter that she sees the flat is only big enough for 1 person (single, unmarried ), yet I see there is a possibility that it can hold 1 person and 1 baby until mid of 2008, plus 1 additional person for a month. But again, it is her flat. Logic does not have a word here.

If she would have said I cannot stay, then I'll definitely move out (the next possible move out date is 31 Sept). Since she said yes - though with some warnings which I think I can fulfill - then I would have to take her word for it.

Or should I better avoid any unwritten agreement with my landlady to save me from any legal problems in the future and move out anyway?

I seriously doubt something like that could be upheld in court. Landlords keep on trying to include the weirdest passages in their contracts but most of the strange sounding stuff isn't legal (e.g. categorically disallowing musical instruments, not allowing satellite dishes * etc.).
A rental agreement should only contain paragraphs describing the landlord's rights to the object let and the tenants' obligations in terms of keeping the rented object the exact way it was when he moved in plus cancellation periods.
Rules guiding the life in an apartment building are described in the rules of the house - the latter typically contain the hours of rest, the way the shared laundry is to be used and some basic stuff taken over from times passed (stuff like "you're not allowed to have open fires in your apartment" etc.).

The tenant is entirely free to do as he or she pleases inside the apartment (which also includes the balcony) except for using it commercially, subletting it or making changes to the building fabric.

dawiz

* they can be illegal but only if there are laws governing the installation of satellite dishes in your community

I am happy that you understood my post they way I meant it!!! I was already hiding in case I got flamedfor telling about it from the landlords sideas we are all nasty people ;-)

You see, would you live in our house this wouldn't be a big problem,but apparently that Madam is kinda strict in her opinions what is allowed and what not,or more likely what she wants to have and allow in her house and what not.
I would suggest, to be on the safe side, that you'd ask her if she'd kindly write down her agreement,about knowing of your pregnancy,allwowing you to stay on until .. .. 2008 in said flat and not having a problem with your mom coming to help out,and this is then for you BOTH to sign!!

I was a single,unmarried (Shock! Horror!!),working mom many many years ago,and used to live in a house for single moms in a one room flat.... so I know what will lie ahead of you,may it be a good experience for you !

Well you are not wrong with this Statement Dawiz,but not completely right either.

I know I am possible p---ing you off with my post,but I feel at tad miffed with the generalisations,so just because I am a nitpicker , I want to elaborate quickly on that quote above.

We can in fact forbid the mounting of a satellite dish!
Everyone in fact can use a satellite dish as long as it's not set up on the outside/outer walls of the building or up on the balcony rails.
Without any other statement/rules from the landlord/agency,it must be on the inside of the balcony and if the railing etc is see through/faces a road etc we can ask ( for the uniformity of the building) that the dish has to be hidden in one of them special boxes for this purpose!

Furthermore,lets assume the house with the finicky 70-year old landlady,is a four flat building occupied for the last ten or more years by single or elderly people purposedly .

In this case something called 'Gewohnheitsrecht' comes into play additionally,e.g. if the landlady can prove that for the sake of the ''peace and quiet'' in that building she only wanted single ppl without kids as tenants and always has done so,then she would not have a bad chance in court.

A baby is of course no legal reason to order someone to just vacate a flat because of that.
I just wanted to show that not everything is simply black and white or good/bad an I apologise for maybe threading on your toes.

no offense taken - I'm aware that satellite dishes have to stay inside the balcony and also implied that in my second post " The tenant is entirely free to do as he or she pleases inside the apartment (which also includes the balcony)".
As for the "Gewohnheitsrecht" - I understand that term differently. For example, if a rental agreement states that tenants are not supposed to leave their shoes in front of the entrance door but a tenant has been leaving them just there for years and the landlord never complained, that's "Gewohnheit". If a new tenant moves into a house, however, no such habitual practices apply to the NEW tenant as he or she doesn't know about any habitual practices that have been going on in a house previous to his or her moving in. If a house is primarily inhabited by elderly people and the landlord accepts a young tenant with all that is implied by that (e.g. that this woman will likely have children) he or she is solely responsible for the "consequences".

dawiz