I'm really, really trying not to moan here.... but I'm finding the situation I'm in so contrary to common sense and to what I would interpret as 'equal treatment'...

I'm hoping for either some perspective or some advice.

Short background. I'm EU, B Permit, moved here July 2009, having worked in the UK for 6 years (some of the time I was off sick, but I was always employed, therefore paid, therefore made my contributions).

By November 2009 I was off sick again, by January 2010 I was unemployed (and still sick). Never worked since. Because I wasn't entitled to loss of earnings payments (insurance refused to cover psychiatric problems), I only had 3 weeks sick pay. Total months paid into the Swiss system: 3.

I've never claimed unemployment as doctor and social workers think it would be disastrous for me. I get Revenue d'Insertion. I survive.

Current issue: I'm now on the Assurance Invalidité 'Mesure de reinsertion'. Way it works (from my understanding): I spend a year or so being assessed to see if I can work and be productive. If the answer is yes, we then look at alternative carers, possible retraining. If the answer is no... well, there lies the issue.

A Swiss person, or an EU person who had paid into the system here for 1 year, plus 3 years payments in their home country, would be entitled to an allowance. This is, as they keep on telling us on the programme, our 'safety net'. "Don't worry! If you really and truly aren't capable to work, you'll get an allowance! We won't leave you struggling!"

My problem? I didn't pay into the system here for a year. So I'm not entitled to an allowance. So I have no security net.

I don't object to being treated differently because I didn't pay in to the system long enough. Everyone else on the scheme gets a daily allowance for turning up. I don't. Fair enough. And I really, really don't want to come across as someone trying to milk the system for all it's worth.

But I cannot get my head around one thing. In the document below, it says:

It also says:

To me, that's quite clear. I should get the same treatment as a Swiss national. I should not suffer negative effects because I moved to Switzerland.

Now, it does also say:
I assume I'm an exception. But to me it's a crazy exception to make. They're saying to me "Hi there! You, the person with major recurrent depression and a host of anxiety related disorders... we've decided to make an exception to the rule that you get treated the same as a Swiss person. We'll let you on your professional reintegration scheme... but you know the safety net of an allowance if it all goes wrong? The one that the mentors mention at least once a week? You don't get that. Oh, and we're not sure what will happen to you if you can't cope on the scheme. No pressure."

Is it just me, or is this a very poor choice of exception? Denying someone whose struggling to get back into work a safety net?

Does anyone have any advice or thoughts?

I've already had this helpful piece of advice from the British Embassy:

Go back to the UK.

Oh yes. I have no savings with which to make the move, no-where to live, I have to establish residency (for 26 weeks) before I can get any real financial help, and the health care there is abysmal, and I can't cope with change. That would be such a smart move.

Sometimes I just don't understand the way the minds of bureaucrats work...

I'm not sure i fully understand all the ins and outs of this but from what you dsay, you were already ill when you were working in the UK and paying into their system. You moved here in July 2009 and within 3-5 months you were off sick again and have never worked since.

You now wish to claim AI from the Swiss system and the authorites are not happy about it.

Without being mean, i think they got a certain point as once you on AI you remain on it for life just about. Yopu moved here evidently sick, you've had 3 years on the Swiss system after paying contributions into the UK system and view cost of living is far more expensive here than the UK.....

I don't think you're being mean... you're only voicing the thoughts that go round my head on a regular basis.

To do myself justice, when I moved here everyone (my doctor, my counsellor, family, friends, even my employer in the UK) thought I was suffering from situational depression linked to my working environment and the fact my parents had moved to Switzerland. The reasoning was: new environment, new job, close to parents again would equal a happier and healthier me. Didn't work... but we weren't to know that.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't want to claim AI. I want to get back to work. But the reinsertion process is very stressful. I'm currently on a 'pause' (after 6 weeks) because I couldn't cope. What the AI people keep on saying is 'It's ok. The whole point of this process is to see if you're able to work or not. Hopefully you can, but if you can't... there's a safety net.' But I don't have that safety net, and I wish I did, for the emotional and psychological support. Knowing if you fail there's something in place to catch you makes you, in my view, less likely to fail because there isn't the 'What if I can't cope...' factor.

And just to clarify, my situation is not because I was already a risk when I moved here. If I'd moved here with a clean bill of health, and after 3 months I'd suddenly fallen ill or had an accident leaving me unable to work (a lot of the people I've met have back problems for instance)... then I'd still be in the same situation... and no-one would be able to say it was something I'd in some respects brought upon myself by moving here with a known health problem. Incapacitating illness can strike anyone at any time.

I don't object per se to being treated differently from the Swiss. I'm not Swiss, so I'm very grateful for everything I get from the system, and I very much hope that one day I can pay them back.

I just find it odd that I have a document that goes on and on about how these agreements ensure equal treatment... but that one of the exceptions is this 'safety net' of knowing there is the possibility of an allowance if you really and truly are unable to work.

To my mind, trying to get back to work after a long period of ill health is difficult as it is. Why increase the chances of a person 'cracking' under the pressure by removing that possibility... and therefore the emotional and psychological support?

But thanks for your input. One of the reasons I posted was because I'm working myself into a bit of a state and I wanted some outside, disinterested views from people who don't know me... so it's interesting to read your take on the situation.

While it would be nice to have everything be safe and supported, I think there is an element to this that reflects life in all its chaotic possibilities. And while it is very difficult to do, it might be an oppourtunity to practice focussing on and investing in the things you have control of, and letting go of /separating yourself from the things that you can't really change. I don't know if that came out right exactly, but this something I am learning myself lately, to try not to stress too much over things I can't impact. It's not worth it, and emotional resources are finite.

I personally know Swiss who don't get disability, depending on where they live (one place yes, another no).

So move and try again.

Tom

Given the title you have chosen for this thread, I find that hard to believe.

The problem with many people (and even countries) is that they want help, be it bail-outs or social security, or even disability allowances. At some point, the people with the money need to ask: "What's in it for me?" They might quite reasonably come to the conclusion that - given your past history - you're not worth taking on as a liability, whether or not you think you are entitled to "equal" treatment. Even if you were, taking you on would be a clear signal for any waster to cross the border and claim disability allowance.

You haven't actually made it clear what kind of problem you have. Is is merely depression? Did you get a diagnosis? What kind of effort have you made toward even finding out what the problem is, let alone getting it sorted? To some people (of which I would admit I would include myself), bleating about a problem - but failing to do anything about resolving it - is not clever, funny or remotely impressive. Worse, it sends a signal that you don't care about yourself. If you don't care about yourself, why should anyone else?

Go and see a clinical hypnotherapist (in the UK, if necessary), and get your head sorted out. The ball is firmly in your court. From what I can read into your post, you don't have a physical disability at all - so I find it utterly ridiculous that you would propose that someone pay you a disability allowance for the rest of your life! I've worked in technical environments alongside people in wheelchairs, and I assure you none of them thought of stopping work and saying "Ah! I'm disabled. I need an allowance because I can't work."

Worse, you're not even trying to solve the problem - you're just trying to push it on to someone else (the Swiss), and they're not having it! Can't say I blame them, frankly.

Wow, that was a whole boat of assumptions.

This is so tough, and just do no know what to say. The AI Insurance is really trying to reduce the number of people elegible, mainly Swiss. A friend of mine who is partly blind, has severe diabetes and related health problems has just been through many recent tests and been told she is no longer able to claim and must find work. She contributed to the system for nearly 20 years. So this is sadly happening to many right now. I am surprised that aftr years of counselling and absence from work in UK, you were advised to go and work abroad in a very different environment, though.

Bonne chance - hope you find a way. How would you feel about going back to the UK? (which is what I would do I think- would your parents be able to help short-term?

The agreement specifically says that the countries are not being standardized and that they have their own system with their own rules. However they can not treat you differently because of your citizenship.

You are not being treated differently because of your citizenship. You are being treated the same. If a Swiss person hadn't contributed for a year, as the rules stipulated, they too would be denied the benefit you are being denied.

Fair treatment is about everyone being accepted or denied because of the rules stated in the system, not because of their citizenship. From what you wrote it seems quite fair to me. They require you to have contributed 1 year. You haven't contributed one year.

Fair point. Am I allowed to be upset and distressed over a number of things which are happening at the moment and perhaps not picking my words well?

Ok. Here you go.

Diagnoses:

Major recurrent depression
Social anxiety disorder
Acculturation disorder
Avoidant personailty disorder

Treatment:

5 years of counselling in the UK, CBT and person centred therapy.
3 years of seeing a psyachiatrist on a weekly basis here in Switzerland.
5 hospitalisations in two countries totalling 8 months.
3 cognitive therapy groups, each lasting 20 weeks, covering my relationships with other people, my ability to manage my emotions and my dealing with depression. All seen through to the end despite major relapses, hospitalisations, huge upheavals in my life and the fact that they are all in French, an average of an hour and a half per night spent on working on the skills taught at home.

And moving from a place where I phoned my psychiatrist threatening to kill myself to a place where I recognise the emotions, and can have a good try at putting something in place, be it meditation, an analysis of my emotions, or if necessary some medication.

I don't think that deserves a response.

I could respond with a load of assumptions of my own. However, I shall restrain myself to saying that I see my post hit a nerve for you. I expected it would in some people. I know that is how a lot of people see me. As I said to someone else, you haven't called me anything I don't call myself in my bad moments.

Sorry for posting twice in a row, I can't quite remember how to multiquote at the moment.

Thank you miniMia for a reasoned response which helps me put my situation in context and understand why I have been told what I was told. I really appreciate it.

I was not told that this is what would happen to a Swiss person too, and it isn't in any of the documentation I've read. As you said, that is perfectly fair.

Having done a little more reading on the subject, it does seem that perhaps there may be a system where the UK (where I did pay in to the system) may, should the need arise (and I hope it never does) make payments to me... or something like that. Which makes sense. So I'm going to investigate that.

That puts things into excellent perspective for me. Thank you.

Thanks. I am also working on this. Unfortunately at the moment I have a large number of problems which fall into the category of "things you can't really change", and they keep spilling out of the nice mental box I try and keep them in! This evening was one of those nights when they made an escape bid.

Thread title changed as requested.

Hello.

I have been participating to this forum for 3 years and I must say there is practical/factual support but not a lot of empathy or emotional support if the situation goes beyond the usual pet loss or baby ailment.

Never mind. I would not come here for non-practical support myself. Still, assuming positive intent is sometimes a good approach, if not for self, at least for the other.

I wish the OP and the responders well.

Whoa. Nothing like the self-righteous patting themselves on the back for being perfect and wondering why others can't be like them. Why do you distinguish between physical and mental disability? Why didn't you ask your co-workers in wheelchairs to just get over themselves, get out of their chairs and walk again? A mental illness is just that, an illness. Just because you can not see the ailment does not mean it does not exist.

BTW, what the heck would a hypnotherapist be able to do, assuming one even believed in such a "treatment".

Sorry, but your post came off way too ignorant and insensitive to me...

Your thread is keeping me awake and now it's 3 am. So I decided to post my thoughts. I hope you don't mind... (nothing mean, just want to help and go back to sleep)

The real issue is not AI or disability allowance, it's where are you in your fight against your dragons ?

Do you progress with your psychiatrist or do you need a new one ?
Are drugs useful or not ?
What kind of alternate thing did you try to help you to progress ? Bach flowers ? Hypnosis ? EFT ? Meditation ? Another I don't know ?

I'm myself fighting my own dragons (recurrent depression since 20years, severe anxious depression and social phobia) and those have helped me a lot.
I just have a last small dragon to kill which strangely prevents me to speak English. I'm also doing *mesure de réinsertion* but due to my situation I have no *revenu d'insertion* or social help.

and a last word : Courage !!!

By the way, I also tried the EMDR technique with my psychiatrist, but it had no effect with me but he told me he had some successes with other patients.

I don't know if you've heard about it.

a link to wikipedia about it : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_mov...d_reprocessing

Thanks. You post made me smile in recognition this morning as I was thinking things over when I went to bed... and woke up realising I'd come to the same conclusion you have suggested - that the way I was reacting last night was not about 'the system' but about me and my need for security.

I had a meeting with my psychiatrist and my AI advisor this morning, and we talked about that (among other things). I mentioned it, my psychiatrist went back over the last 3 years and basically said "Yes, this is this patient, she finds it incredibly difficult to cope with insecurity and she keeps finding herself in insecure situations." And as my AI advisor said, even if I knew there was that safety net I'd probably start worrying about something else!

So my psychiatrist and I are going to work on that. We're going to look at my 'toolbox', identify what tools I already have I can use, see if there are new techniques I can apply, and I'm going to make a real effort to use the Mindfulness and relaxation techniques I already know on a more regular basis.

I'm very happy with my psychiatrist, I know I've made a lot of progress with her but there's a lot that still needs doing... also the really nice thing is that she likes working with me because she says I have such a good attitude and a good capacity to make progress on my own between sessions and apply what we've talked about. Apparently it makes a nice change.

Then on a more personal note I'm trying to apply some of the things I've been reading in my Bible times recently around the subject of insecurity, as I find it's important for me to integrate the therapeutic approach and my beliefs.

Medication change... I most sincerely hope not!

Someone else asked if I'd thought of moving back to the UK... right now I don't think it's a good idea, as my support network (medical and friends and family) here is running well... my support network in the UK was falling to pieces with the effort of supporting me (mainly because the medical side wasn't so great). Plus after 3 years I'd have real difficulties re-adapting. And my social workers, AI advisor etc keep on telling me they see no reason for me to go back at the moment.

You probably never noticed that this applies also to a Swiss person, because a Swiss living here their whole life will probably never find themselves in the situation of not having contributed for a year. Either they have or their family (through childhood) has contributed for them. A returning Swiss though, may in fact find themselves in the same position as you are in.

At least your family is here for you. I know not every family is the same, but I know my mother (as much as we don't exactly get along all the time) would never leave me in a time of need. I hope you can at least count on your family to lend support.

SR has really said it best. You need to focus on you and getting better. Hopefully you'll find the security you need through your support network.

Best of luck to you.