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Old 30.06.2015, 13:58
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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The insurance company would have paid me the same in case of an accident even if my premium were 400-500 francs lower (as it should have been it is offered now).
It is not should, must, has to, shall been. It is more could be, may be, and will be once you successfully renegotiate the contract. Unless there is a specific clause in your contract, terms and condition, or written from your insurance agent, which so far you did not mention.
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Old 30.06.2015, 15:38
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

Rant:

Every time I read one of these kinds of threads, I just scratch my head. What ever happened to the old line "If you want something done right, do it yourself"?

Why do so many people expect the universe to magically align things for them when a simple phone call or letter would save so much trouble? Why is it that when a person makes a mistake, it's always someone else at fault and the other party should pay? Lawyers are mentioned before good old-fashioned communication.

When we bought a new car, the dealer said they would inform our insurance. That's nice, but we wanted to be sure that our agent had the correct info. So we sent him a letter with a copy of the sales contract and what we wanted for coverage (it was a new car as opposed to our used one). He sent back a letter with a summary of the changes and asked us to confirm that's what we wanted. Easy peasy and didn't take much time at all.

/rant

OP, the best you can do is try, but your approach will probably have a big impact on whether or not you succeed in getting any refund. If you approach the insurance company with accusations like you have here - that they should have known this or done that, you'll not get far.

Try writing a letter, say you realize there has been a mistake and enclose proof of when you switched from leasing to ownership. Nicely ask them to refund the difference between the premiums and to ensure your current contract properly reflects the ownership. If you start threatening with lawyers etc., they may well sit back and laugh and let you drain your pockets in a futile attempt. You catch more flies with honey, and all that.
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Old 30.06.2015, 15:54
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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@ Today Only - I don't understand. The insurance company would have paid me the same in case of an accident even if my premium were 400-500 francs lower (as it should have been). I don't think the payout would be higher simply because I am "leasing the car".
But note, I am not contesting the fact that premiums for leasing are or should be higher. It is how it is.
Are you 100% sure that your premium would have been lower?

I ask as I received confirmation from an Allianz agent that they are now working on a new lower set of tarifs. This has saved me around 400-500 a year on a voll-kasko policy.
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  #44  
Old 30.06.2015, 16:15
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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Are you 100% sure that your premium would have been lower?

I ask as I received confirmation from an Allianz agent that they are now working on a new lower set of tarifs. This has saved me around 400-500 a year on a voll-kasko policy.
Normally a car that has been financed other than leasing is cheaper to insure than one that is leased, all terms being equal.

Why, you tell me as i cannot understand.

On a Chf 60k car i would not have thought the difference to be so great, but i guess it depends on insurance company.

I gave some details yesterday to Tom (post N°24) and as he hasn't been back to trash me completely, i can only asume there is some truth in what i say !
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Old 30.06.2015, 16:35
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

The reason why it is more expensive is relatively simple - in many situations the market value is less than the outstanding lease amount - and hence the payout is greater than the amount originally planned for in their "tables".

In the case of "no linked finance" the insurance has no obligation to pay out the higher amount.
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  #46  
Old 30.06.2015, 17:11
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

@3Wishes My idea was to get legal advice so that I could write a better letter to the insurance company. And failing that, someone I could turn to in case the insurance company doesn't reimburse / compensate. Also for advice on how to continue and to clarify what my rights are and what is realistic. That is what I did with the tenants association and it was quite useful.
And yes, it was always my idea to start nicely, absolutely not to threaten with lawyers, so I think there was no need for the "rant" But thank you for the rest of the post!
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Old 30.06.2015, 17:46
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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Are you 100% sure that your premium would have been lower?
.
I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. My premium would be around 500 CHF lower all these years, had I notified them about the change of status / ownership. As confirmed by the new proposal presented to me when I visited the agency, where only a change in factor "leasing" resulted in such a change. Changing other parameters reduced the premium further, but that is due to different coverage.
  #48  
Old 30.06.2015, 17:52
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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The reason why it is more expensive is relatively simple - in many situations the market value is less than the outstanding lease amount - and hence the payout is greater than the amount originally planned for in their "tables".

In the case of "no linked finance" the insurance has no obligation to pay out the higher amount.
This maybe so, but i tend to think that the insurance people have worked out people like shinny new cars but can't afford them unless they lease them so they spout this bullshit as justification of a premium increase.

And doesn't it just work well !! (for them, not us)

The risk remains exactly the same.
  #49  
Old 30.06.2015, 17:54
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. My premium would be around 500 CHF lower all these years, had I notified them about the change of status / ownership. As confirmed by the new proposal presented to me when I visited the agency, where only a change in factor "leasing" resulted in such a change. Changing other parameters reduced the premium further, but that is due to different coverage.
As I said, Allianz (for one) are working off a lower base premium table now - which means any NEW quote will be lower than an old policy. I suspect other insurers will follow. The key is finding out what your new quote would be for a leased car of the same value.

Give or take voll-kasko currently equated to around 0.8-0.9% of the new price - down from 0.95-1.05% last year.

For a policy to be cheaper by 400-500chf per annum (on a 60k leased car) sounds very high.
650chf (third party @ 30%)
1200chf (voll kasto @ 30%) This would suggest around a 2% rate.
150chf (taxes etc)
2,000chf (TOTAL)

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The risk remains exactly the same.
The "risk" in terms of probability remains the same, but the cost of a total loss is higher. If you have 100 policies, and every year 1 has a total loss. If all those policies are for cash purchases the insurer will payout the market value - say 50k.

Repeat that for 100 leased cars - at the point of loss the market value is 50k - but the value of the remaining credit is 60k. The loss incurred is 60k. Therefore, the insurer will spread that 10k over 100 policies and charge everyone a premium of 100chf for leasing.
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Old 30.06.2015, 17:57
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. My premium would be around 500 CHF lower all these years, had I notified them about the change of status / ownership. As confirmed by the new proposal presented to me when I visited the agency, where only a change in factor "leasing" resulted in such a change.

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The reason why it is more expensive is relatively simple - in many situations the market value is less than the outstanding lease amount - and hence the payout is greater than the amount originally planned for in their "tables".
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And if you get casco insurance compare the depreciation table of the contract. That's where the big money is hidden.
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If your contract and the associated conditions does not mention anything about the leasing it is just a case of a free market.
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Unless there is a specific clause in your contract, terms and condition, or written from your insurance agent, which so far you did not mention.
Does or does not your existing contract, which you are so mad about, mention the leasing in any word? And are we talking about the same depreciation tables? If you really want some help you should answer this question. Or have you actually never read, even now, what you signed?
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Old 30.06.2015, 19:00
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

Now I get the new table question. The answer is, I have no idea. But, the fact is that:
a) the insurance agent told me I overpaid because they didn't know the kease was terminated.
b) as demonstrated by Today only, a new contract would be several hundred francs more expensive with a lease, than without.
So, perhaps I was wrong to state I overpaid by 500. But I believe it doesn't really matter for this discussion (on how to proceed) whether the difference is 600 or 200. If it does, please explain why.

Since this is a public forum, I prefer not to go out with all the details of the insurance (company, for example). But at the same time, I didn't expect nor ask for my case to be "solved" to the tiniest detail here. At the same time, do appreciate the time you are have invested.

Also, if my contract doesn't mention "lease", I don't have a case? Don't get that.
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Old 30.06.2015, 19:07
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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Also, if my contract doesn't mention "lease", I don't have a case? Don't get that.
Simple: Free market. You were offered a rate, you accepted the rate, you never renegotiated the rate. There is no entity which sets the "correct" rate (unlike basic health insurance). It is like people paying too much for the wrong and too old mobile phone contract. Just because you could get now or could have gotten in the past a better contract does not make the existing contract and insurance rate void, illegal, or is it considered as an overpayment by the law. It is considered an overpayment by a lazy bum.
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Old 30.06.2015, 19:09
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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Are you 100% sure that your premium would have been lower?

I ask as I received confirmation from an Allianz agent that they are now working on a new lower set of tarifs. This has saved me around 400-500 a year on a voll-kasko policy.
Did they lower the premium first and then told you about the changes (when you asked?)
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Old 30.06.2015, 19:19
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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My premium would be around 500 CHF lower all these years, had I notified them about the change of status / ownership.
You must be running out of feet to shoot yourself in by now.
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Old 30.06.2015, 19:22
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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Simple: Free market. You were offered a rate, you accepted the rate, you never renegotiated the rate. There is no entity which sets the "correct" rate (unlike basic health insurance). It is like people paying too much for the wrong and too old mobile phone contract. Just because you could get now or could have gotten in the past a better contract does not make the existing contract and insurance rate void, illegal, or is it considered as an overpayment by the law. It is considered an overpayment by a lazy bum.
If the contract doesn't mention "leasing", but in fact they do charge me more for the leasing (as we have established they did), then how am I supposed to know leasing is a factor (why would I then notify them when the lease is over)? On the contrary, I argue the contract is then misleading (on purpose).

I am certainly not an expert in the insurance market, which you seem to be (please confirm), but the free market claim is stretching it a bit. It is a more regulated and controlled industry than telecoms (mobile contracts), I would assume.
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Old 30.06.2015, 19:48
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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If the contract doesn't mention "leasing", but in fact they do charge me more for the leasing (as we have established they did), then how am I supposed to know leasing is a factor (why would I then notify them when the lease is over)? On the contrary, I argue the contract is then misleading (on purpose).

I am certainly not an expert in the insurance market, which you seem to be (please confirm), but the free market claim is stretching it a bit. It is a more regulated and controlled industry than telecoms (mobile contracts), I would assume.
I think ASwissInTheUS was making a point that it doesn't require any expertise in insurance. Perhaps some expertise in Latin, I guess: caveat emptor.
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Old 30.06.2015, 21:53
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

Yes, and I think I was making a point that there are commentors who are trying to be funny or smart, rather than to be useful to someone who came to ask for advice.

Why do you think people who have no expertise in insurance, law or claim resolution would feel the need to comment with great assurance in what they wrote. Beats me...
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Old 30.06.2015, 21:57
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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Did they lower the premium first and then told you about the changes (when you asked?)
Bought a new car - which I would have thought would raise the premium. It didn't, it dropped. So I spoke at length with the guy about the why and wherefores.

For example if you go for premium protection - it costs 10% of your premium.
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Old 30.06.2015, 22:07
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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if you go for premium protection - it costs 10% of your premium.
Since I'm at 35%, and have 8 vehicles registered in my name, it's a no-brainer.

Tom
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Old 30.06.2015, 22:12
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Re: Overpaid car insurance - need legal advice

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I am certainly not an expert in the insurance market, which you seem to be (please confirm), but the free market claim is stretching it a bit. It is a more regulated and controlled industry than telecoms (mobile contracts), I would assume.
No I am not. But I have a nice insurance agent which explained me a lot of details and what I have to look for, and what I actually need (or rather what I do not need).

It is a bit more regulated than other contracts, but at the end it is quite a free marked.
The relevent law is the Versicherungsvertraggesetz https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...008/index.html
In your case Art. 23 may apply
Art. 23
Quote:
f. Prämienreduktion
Ist die Prämie unter Berücksichtigung bestimmter gefahrerhöhender Umstände vereinbart worden, so kann der Versicherungsnehmer, wenn diese Umstände im Laufe der Versicherung wegfallen oder ihre Bedeutung verlieren, für die künftigen Versicherungsperioden die tarifgemässe Herabsetzung der Prämie verlangen.
The law says:
a) If insurance rate is based on special risks.
and
b) Such risks no longer exists.
and
c) You informed the insurance
and
d) There is a lower insurance rate according the contract
then
Future rates must me lowered.
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