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  #381  
Old 10.07.2015, 00:33
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

According to the newspapers today after 60% voted in the referendum last weekend against accepting the creditors deal now the newspapers are reporting the Greek cabinet has approved an even stronger (higher austerity) deal
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  #382  
Old 10.07.2015, 00:55
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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All the southern countries evade paying their taxes if they can and have done so for decades. If they hadn't have done so perhaps the tax brackets might not be so high in the first place.
That is one way to see it.
However, a comment or two down the quote comment, somebody made a good remark:
"Why didn't you slip the tax-inspector 1000€ like all the others and be done with it?".

I'll claim these taxes were raised so high so that people would bribe tax-officials rather than paying the tax itself.
If it's like in any other corrupt country, the tax-inspector receiving the bribe has to pay his superior a cut (and so on).
I'm sure, that line of pocket-lining went (and might still go) very high up...
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  #383  
Old 10.07.2015, 01:26
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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That is one way to see it.
However, a comment or two down the quote comment, somebody made a good remark:
"Why didn't you slip the tax-inspector 1000€ like all the others and be done with it?".

I'll claim these taxes were raised so high so that people would bribe tax-officials rather than paying the tax itself.
If it's like in any other corrupt country, the tax-inspector receiving the bribe has to pay his superior a cut (and so on).
I'm sure, that line of pocket-lining went (and might still go) very high up...
This isn't mideveil Europe is it? With the Sherrif of Nottingham strolling about the Greek Isles?
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  #384  
Old 10.07.2015, 07:54
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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...The history of Greek national default is inextricably tied to this troubled relationship with Europe. As some commentators have noted, the country has been in default for roughly half of its existence as an independent state. The pattern is more complicated than just a repeated failure to pay debts. It’s a recurring vicious cycle of foolish lending by European creditors and profligate mismanagement by Greeks going back nearly 200 years...
A nice and easy-to-read article on some of Greece's historical background to this crisis, courtesy of The Atlantic.

Kalimera

Pavlos
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  #385  
Old 10.07.2015, 09:57
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

so lets say the imf lends 1bn dollars to a known fraudster, it then says all future generations of that country must pay that debt back. in which normal lending situation is this reasonable? the mafia maybe.

its part of the win of the imf et al lending to countries. they know they will get the money back several times over until one generation finally chokes on the dummy and says no.

its also amuses me the americans commenting on here, like their kids aren't going to spit out the dummy over the trillions of debt generated by their parents and grandparents military spending (a sort of self fulfilling pocket lining program, spend money to attack people and when they fight back say you need military spending to protect yourself).
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  #386  
Old 10.07.2015, 10:17
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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its also amuses me the americans commenting on here, like their kids aren't going to spit out the dummy over the trillions of debt generated by their parents and grandparents military spending (a sort of self fulfilling pocket lining program, spend money to attack people and when they fight back say you need military spending to protect yourself).
Yeah, but it always feels good to look down to others.

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All the southern countries evade paying their taxes if they can and have done so for decades. If they hadn't have done so perhaps the tax brackets might not be so high in the first place.
.
I'm not so sure about that, have you looked at the level of taxation in Scandinavian states?

Anyway, Spain for instance (one of those "vicious" Southern states) has one of the best healthcare systems in the world, which is available for all the citizens and foreigners who pay social insurances. And I'm sure there are other things (like education etc) where a lot of money from taxes are going into. Let's not speak without really knowing the whole aspect of a certain problem.

Last edited by greenmount; 10.07.2015 at 10:29.
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  #387  
Old 10.07.2015, 10:43
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Let's not speak without really knowing the whole aspect of a certain problem.
A requirement like that would be the death-knell of many a forum
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  #388  
Old 10.07.2015, 11:15
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

From reading today's news, it sounds like Greece and EU are trying to still work out a deal to keep Greece in the EUR currency? Why? Germans are sick and tired of giving them money, and Greece doesn't want to pay it back or live by the austerity rules (that seem to be making things actually worse in Greece). Why is it that everyone seems to agree that the "Grexit" is the best thing for all, but yet they are still fighting to prevent it from happening?
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  #389  
Old 10.07.2015, 11:28
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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From reading today's news, it sounds like Greece and EU are trying to still work out a deal to keep Greece in the EUR currency? Why? Germans are sick and tired of giving them money, and Greece doesn't want to pay it back or live by the austerity rules (that seem to be making things actually worse in Greece). Why is it that everyone seems to agree that the "Grexit" is the best thing for all, but yet they are still fighting to prevent it from happening?
Because it is so ingrained in their ideology and thinking that the EU needs to grow, both inwardly and outwardly and become sort of a superstate that can give it out to the likes of the USA and China. The concept of even a poor and marginal country leaving or lessening its ties is just unimagineable to them.
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  #390  
Old 10.07.2015, 11:44
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Because it is so ingrained in their ideology and thinking that the EU needs to grow, both inwardly and outwardly and become sort of a superstate that can give it out to the likes of the USA and China. The concept of even a poor and marginal country leaving or lessening its ties is just unimagineable to them.
and they'd be right

the us would be much smaller and weaker if lincoln had allowed the slave owning states to secede, he was willing to risk a civil war and wasn't deterred by the resulting great loss of life and destruction to keep the states together.

anyway haven't you been watching the walking dead , alone you die, if you are in a larger group your chances of survival are much greater.
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  #391  
Old 10.07.2015, 12:07
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

Ah, so if Greece leaves, then it makes the EU smaller and weaker and maybe a "domino effect" with others leaving? But if Greece stays, then the rules of the EUR currency are broken (ie: don't have to pay it back or abide by austerity) so then others will follow the example (Italy, Spain?). So either way the EU takes a hit.

Altho I don't see the big deal about the EUR currency, there's quite a few EU countries that don't use the EUR currency, eg. UK, Poland, Sweden....
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  #392  
Old 10.07.2015, 12:14
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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and they'd be right

the us would be much smaller and weaker if lincoln had allowed the slave owning states to secede, he was willing to risk a civil war and wasn't deterred by the resulting great loss of life and destruction to keep the states together.
I'm not sure.

The former cotton states are not exactly top of the league in terms of industrial or economic performance. Maybe the US would today be a more prosperous and more united nation without them. Possibly without the South, there wouldn't have been Jim Crow laws, there wouldn't have been a need for a Civil Rights movement and the (rest of) USA would be ahead socially, in education etc.

Sometimes it takes a fence to make good neighbours.
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  #393  
Old 10.07.2015, 12:46
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I'm not sure.

The former cotton states are not exactly top of the league in terms of industrial or economic performance. Maybe the US would today be a more prosperous and more united nation without them. Possibly without the South, there wouldn't have been Jim Crow laws, there wouldn't have been a need for a Civil Rights movement and the (rest of) USA would be ahead socially, in education etc.

Sometimes it takes a fence to make good neighbours.
well that might leave the united states of 'connecticut, vermont and new hampshire (ok california too because i like their style)'

i think its size that matters and that size can be more powerful even if its made up of varying degrees of degenerates, it doesnt necessarily have to be good people I don't think.
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  #394  
Old 10.07.2015, 12:58
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

Very very good, worth watch. Who is this guy?

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  #395  
Old 10.07.2015, 17:02
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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This isn't mideveil Europe is it? With the Sherrif of Nottingham strolling about the Greek Isles?
Ask a Greek what he can get (or rather could) without bribing anyone.
They have different words for the bribe-money, depending on the amount.

But maybe what the press reports is all lies and it's in fact all peachy down there.
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  #396  
Old 10.07.2015, 18:49
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Very very good, worth watch. Who is this guy?

Someone who forgets that many things that he denounces from his (euro)liberal point of view (to name one thing cronyism) played very well indeed in the hands of the anglosaxon investment bankster 'hood which made $bzln on funny things such as "interest rate convergence" and bond placements and such.
wink, wink

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  #397  
Old 10.07.2015, 20:09
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Ask a Greek what he can get (or rather could) without bribing anyone.
They have different words for the bribe-money, depending on the amount.

But maybe what the press reports is all lies and it's in fact all peachy down there.
First of all I would rather ask a Greek whether what he wants it's entirely legal. Usually, bribery is "necessary" when you want the things done let's say in a more comfortable way (for you) than what's legal (or the norm)...

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A requirement like that would be the death-knell of many a forum
Yeah, you're right. I tend to always forget that.
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Old 12.07.2015, 13:19
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Very very good, worth watch. Who is this guy?

Looks like:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Verhofstadt
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Old 12.07.2015, 13:20
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

looks like this will run to the last minute.

If you wrote a book with this as the theme nobody would believe it.
So Greece had a referendum that rejected the creditors offer. Now contrary to that it seems the Greek Parliament agreed a proposal that is more austere than the one rejected.

Now it looks possible that the EU will reject the new proposal although it is more austere than they requested!

The EU finance ministers meeting has been extended to today.

EU European leaders meeting has been postponed because the finance ministers do not have an agreement.

However this turns out (bailout or not) there will be many people and countries profoundly dissatisfied with the result.
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Old 12.07.2015, 14:09
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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so lets say the imf lends 1bn dollars to a known fraudster, it then says all future generations of that country must pay that debt back. in which normal lending situation is this reasonable? the mafia maybe.
Greek governments are democratically elected. If it happened to be part of some kind of mafia, it's the greeks' problem and theirs to solve, not that of any one outsider. Nobody but the greeks are respobsible for their own government, and only the greeks can change it.
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