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  #421  
Old 13.07.2015, 10:30
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

And will they then put it to the people in another referendum if the MPs say yes? Considering they've already rejected a lot of the proposals I'd be a pretty pissed Greek if my government then turned around and agreed to even more stringent measures. The whole thing is crazy!
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  #422  
Old 13.07.2015, 10:35
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Again the same obsession.
I hate to break it to you but loans get canceled every day all over the world.
"OBSESSION"? As stated by another poster about debt...If Greece can't pay back it's loans in such excess...why not cut it into pieces and hand over shares of land and property to creditors it is defaulting to? Seems logical to me. I think they would be doing better off waiving A German flag over part of the country then this Greek flag that defaults time and time again. Isn't it a little embarrassing by now?
I am really not impressed on how you prefer to have a short term memory over the long term....and we are supposed to forget actual arguments against their open attitude of taking money with no intent to pay back. You said before they "only" asked for debt relief. ..that is loss of money.
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  #423  
Old 13.07.2015, 10:57
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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"OBSESSION"? As stated by another poster about debt...If Greece can't pay back it's loans in such excess...why not cut it into pieces and hand over shares of land and property to creditors it is defaulting to? Seems logical to me. I think they would be doing better off waiving A German flag over part of the country then this Greek flag that defaults time and time again. Isn't it a little embarrassing by now?
I am really not impressed on how you prefer to have a short term memory over the long term....and we are supposed to forget actual arguments against their open attitude of taking money with no intent to pay back. You said before they "only" asked for debt relief. ..that is loss of money.
pissed? Isn't the government freely elected?
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  #424  
Old 13.07.2015, 11:22
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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And will they then put it to the people in another referendum if the MPs say yes? Considering they've already rejected a lot of the proposals I'd be a pretty pissed Greek if my government then turned around and agreed to even more stringent measures. The whole thing is crazy!
I do not see them calling another referendum which would also vote no!
Fine example of a Govt doing what they believe is best for a country even though it is against the wishes of the majority of people who vote!
Difficult to see how the average Greek can respond. If the Govt. resigns and they have another election will any party be brave (foolhardy) enough to stand on a platform of non-austerity? I doubt it so who could people vote for to show their displeasure.

The Swiss Govt should do the same on the EU aspect of the recent "einwanderung" vote!
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  #425  
Old 13.07.2015, 11:26
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Greece is NOW asking for 50 billion.
In February Greece did not ask for money, it only asked for:
-relief from upcoming debt payments
-a renegotiation of the requirements for too big budget surpluses in the next years (which strangled the economy)

Because of Germany's (and its vassal states') refusal to see reason, we go to last night's negotiations.
Now Germany has shown its real face to the whole world.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/thisisacoup
Varoufakis tried to saved everybody from this embarrassment.
Unfortunately what they asked for in February was not sufficient; the 50 billion was needed but not recognised by the Govt. at the time.
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  #426  
Old 13.07.2015, 12:23
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Again the same obsession.
I hate to break it to you but loans get canceled every day all over the world.
Ok, we see these things differently. Again, I like the country and its people too much to even want to continue this discussion...
I can only really, really hope that in the end will be better for Greece...it's not fair for the simple folks what it's happening now. They don't deserve the populist and careless parties that ruined their country, no matter what you're going to say about this one too. End of.
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  #427  
Old 13.07.2015, 12:27
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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"OBSESSION"? As stated by another poster about debt...If Greece can't pay back it's loans in such excess...why not cut it into pieces and hand over shares of land and property to creditors it is defaulting to? Seems logical to me. I think they would be doing better off waiving A German flag over part of the country then this Greek flag that defaults time and time again. Isn't it a little embarrassing by now?
I am really not impressed on how you prefer to have a short term memory over the long term....and we are supposed to forget actual arguments against their open attitude of taking money with no intent to pay back. You said before they "only" asked for debt relief. ..that is loss of money.
This is a dangerous and slippery slope. You hand over assets to foreign governments who then run them as they see fit and Greece has even less income with which to repay its debt.

Imagine when Obama saved GM that he had demanded that GM hand over its patents and production facilities to the government and told them they had to repay the debt nevertheless. How would that have worked out?
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  #428  
Old 13.07.2015, 12:39
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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This is a dangerous and slippery slope. You hand over assets to foreign governments who then run them as they see fit and Greece has even less income with which to repay its debt.

Imagine when Obama saved GM that he had demanded that GM hand over its patents and production facilities to the government and told them they had to repay the debt nevertheless. How would that have worked out?
Actually I was arguing dissolving Greece and making it territorially part of a few other countries.. Because this game of Greece going on and on thru the future with borrowing to pay for its sustainability, as opposed to being that way because of actual success is only what has happened before.
Hahahha, I say this and how much foreign debt does America have?
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Old 13.07.2015, 12:42
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Actually I was arguing dissolving Greece and making it territorially part of a few other countries.. Because this game of Greece going on and on thru the future with borrowing to pay for its sustainability, as opposed to being that way because of actual success is only what has happened before.
Hahahha, I say this and how much foreign debt does America have?
If the consequence of not being able to repay a foreign debt was to have to lose part of your territory, I think that would pretty much be the nail in the coffin of inter-country debt in the future.
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  #430  
Old 13.07.2015, 12:49
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Wouldnt you do the same if you were lending a lot of money to a friend who has been reluctant or unable to repay?
the eurozone was designed to create a closer union, less like friends, and more like family.

it seems like germany isn't willing to foot the bill for that.
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  #431  
Old 13.07.2015, 12:58
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

"As it is the deal will almost certainly lead to snap elections. Mr Tsipras will reshuffle his cabinet and discard those cabinet ministers who opposed his latest proposal."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33503955
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  #432  
Old 13.07.2015, 13:33
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

So the ponzi scheme continues, very happy for not being eurozone tax payer for the moment. Wonder if any eurozone country could now have enough balls to organize referendum whether its taxpayers still want to burn their money to this game. Answer if obviously no but maybe, just maybe the taxpayers will remember on their next elections.
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  #433  
Old 13.07.2015, 13:55
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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it seems like germany isn't willing to foot the bill for that.
In EU, Germany always pays at the end, the CDU wants the best interest for investment possible to them. That's all.

It is just the CDU. Schäuble's stance has nothing to do with economics and finance, it's internal German policy. Real German people do not understand the matters as they've been bombarded (pun intended) with CDU propaganda for internal use for years. The only thing the CDU wants is to stay in power without the need of a great coalition wih SPD. Greek people are not part of the CDU plan. Real Germany is not reduced to the CDU, so blame the party and its ideology, cynisism and political calculations, not the people.

It's a power game where Schäuble plays Mr Grey and expects Anastasia Greeceland to enjoy it.
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Old 13.07.2015, 14:35
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

It is a slow day in a little Greek Village. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted.

Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.
On this particular day a rich German tourist is driving through the village, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night.
The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.

The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.

The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel.

The guy at the Farmers' Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the taverna.

The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him "services" on credit.

The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note.

The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveler will not suspect anything.

At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the €100
note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money,
and leaves town.
No one produced anything.
No one earned anything.
However, the whole village is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism.

And that is how the bailout package works!
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  #435  
Old 13.07.2015, 14:44
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

It's always micro-politics of people that want to satisfy their peoples that end up ing things up all these past years.

Greek governments didn't want to bear the political cost of restructuring the economy, and ended up bearing the cost of hiding the real problems under the carpet.

For the past 6 months the strangest mixture of government, consisting of radical lefts, fascistoids like Kamenos, and European-supporting people, has been sitting on their asses with their thumbs up on it, and a couple of weeks back decided that they can bluff the guy accross the table that holds all the freaking chips with a stupid pot and an even stupidest hand...

Now everybody sees what's what though. SYRIZA seems to start coming to their senses, and they seem like they're going to "clean up house". That President of Parliament is a bitch and a half, with serious issues. Same goes for the leftest of the left, that they appointed (FFS) Minster of Restructuring & Reforms or whatever...


On the other hand you see the vindictive Germans and their satellites, that instead of rejoicing that Greece is coming to its senses and seems to have the strongest possible unity of recent years to pass strong and meaningful reforms, they prefer to say "screw all the years of hard work from everyone in the Eurozone, discussing, negotiating, changing, loaning, and paying back; let's scrap everything and send them on their way"...

When most of the Eurozone countries over the weekend came in and saw the government coming around and realising how the game is played, Germany should take the high road and get cracking. They could wrap up the "talks" in 5h, send them back to Greece to start writing a shitload of legislation that needs to get passed yesterday, but instead they starting acting crazy just to make everything impossible and get Greece out.



Also Finland acting how it does now, after Greece helped them get in the Euro is irony worth of an ancient Greek drama... Who by the way are also just using populistic anti-EU rhetoric to stay in government.


The whole of Europe is full of politicians just serving to their people what their people want to hear.

The Greeks are being told "the suffering will end" and they like it.
The Germans are being told "the lazy Greeks will suffer" and they like it.
The Fins are being told I-don't-even-know-what-that-right-wing-nut-is-even-saying-half-of-the-time.


And the problem remains that nobody stops to think, because feeling is easier and more powerful than thinking.
It's easy for people to feel they've had enough and lash out from whichever side.

What has proven to be difficult, is for people to sit around a god damn table and talk things out like a family. Maybe it's too early for the EU and we're asking too much of it. The US went through a civil war 100 years after they became a nation with a common language and a common political constitution, and the EU has vivid WW2 memories and only 23 years of an economic constitution to hold them together...



PS So far the only people that "lost money" on Greece have been the people that were involved in the PSI haircut. And even then, there were humongous losses within Greece that are today causing many of the problems. Bond holders were pension funds and universities that saw their reserves annihilated... In any case, bond holders are investors. I see people on EF very eager to talk down on people trying to recover from "bad investments" and equally eager to demand that other investments must always pay out no matter what. Double standards and all that...

PS2 So far, Germany is doing pretty well especially because of the on-going problems with Greece in the Eurozone. When they lose 1 cent, they have the right to start yelling their hearts out. Until then, they can enjoy their cheap currency, their increased exports, and lending money to EU partners with a pretty decent profit... I don't thing everybody here would claim that UBS "gave them money" to buy a house or something... It ain't over till it's over so let's wait and see what happens.
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  #436  
Old 13.07.2015, 14:53
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Also Finland acting how it does now, after Greece helped them get in the Euro is irony worth of an ancient Greek drama... Who by the way are also just using populistic anti-EU rhetoric to stay in government.
Hmm, and how did Greece exactly help a country which rarely had state budget deficits, had extremely low inflation rates and so on get in the Euro (zone)?
I^m surprised that the good Finns actually gave up their marks for something so adventurous/risky as a common currency. They really believed in the European project, there's no other explanation.
And all these Southern countries which gave up weak national currencies (Italy, Spain for instance) with ridiculously high inflation rates and took advantages from being part of the euro zone should really shut up now...I'm amused when I see Italian politicians making foams at their mouths and blaming Germany, perhaps they should go back to their beloved liras and buy a bread for ten thousands units...this week, at that. You never know what's going to be next week. Heeeh...
I'll really get my coat now.

Last edited by greenmount; 13.07.2015 at 15:09.
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Old 13.07.2015, 15:23
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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When most of the Eurozone countries over the weekend came in and saw the government coming around and realising how the game is played, Germany should take the high road and get cracking. They could wrap up the "talks" in 5h, send them back to Greece to start writing a shitload of legislation that needs to get passed yesterday, but instead they starting acting crazy just to make everything impossible and get Greece out.
Yes, just looking at the actions of some parties, I wonder what exactly it is they are aiming to achieve.
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Old 13.07.2015, 17:31
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

Interesting comments in this Beeb article.

"It will be a long, hard road back to growth.

The facts remain. Greece has €320bn in debt. Its debt to gross domestic product ratio is above 180%.

What is missing is the means by which Greece will return to growth.

The deal brings to an end a long period of pretending.

The figures used for Greece to join the single currency were massaged. In 2009, their accounts were proved to be as good as fakes.

Reforms were never fully implemented. Paying taxes was a lifestyle choice.

Many middle-class and wealthy Greeks have their funds in London.

The best and the brightest are queuing up to move to Australia and Canada.

As for Europe, it has presided over the economic collapse of a member state. Greece's economy has shrunk 25% in just five years.

The Germans and others will argue they loaned Greece €240bn.

But it was an experiment. Even the IMF conceded it had miscalculated the effects of austerity."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33506841
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  #439  
Old 13.07.2015, 17:31
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I don't know what you've been reading but it's Germany (and its vassal states) that has refused to see reason, putting its (their) ideology first.

Why Greece never got a fair chance
Basically a business can go to the bank and ask to negotiate its debt when it realizes that it's not sustainable, but a country can't?
a fair is someplace that ugly girls go to show off their pretty pigs.



the Greek debt has already been renegotiated multiple times, and the Greeks get to pay interest rates that are considerably south of what the actual financing market would permit. in the real world, parties always get treated as "fairly" as they deserve, i.e. they get treated according to the leverage they are able to exert, and Greece is utterly lacking in leverage. the fact that the Greek government has navigated the most recent talks about as poorly as could ever be imagined has not helped, either.

Greece is at the mercy of the EU, it is as simple as that. from my perspective, the EU has been far more "fair" with Greece than it could ever reasonably expect under the circumstances, blaming anybody other than the Greeks for the problems in Greece is just plain silly.
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Old 13.07.2015, 18:44
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Yes, they do. But immediately after a loan is cancelled because it can't be paid back, lenders are generally reluctant to lend again. Sometimes loans are made again after a write down because lendors are convinced that the situation that prevented the repayment has fundamentally changed and improved. I think whether or not this has happened in Greece is at the heart of the discussion. If there is no trust that the results will be different the next time, then going down the same path again is not a good option.
It is really difficult to make a discussion when you all assume that what I (as a member of this forum) want is more money to be given to Greece.
Seriously.
Every time I say something I have to add an asterisk where I explain that I do not want more money sent to Greece.
Otherwise you completely ignore my point and you go straight to why Greece must not receive more money. Guess what, we agree on that.
Greece must not receive more money.
Happy?

Now can you please read what I've written?


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This is a dangerous and slippery slope. You hand over assets to foreign governments who then run them as they see fit and Greece has even less income with which to repay its debt.

Imagine when Obama saved GM that he had demanded that GM hand over its patents and production facilities to the government and told them they had to repay the debt nevertheless. How would that have worked out?
The Obama administration cared to fix the situation, unlike the Merkel administration.
End of story.
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