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Old 13.07.2015, 21:18
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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It's always micro-politics of people that want to satisfy their peoples that end up ing things up all these past years.

Greek governments didn't want to bear the political cost of restructuring the economy, and ended up bearing the cost of hiding the real problems under the carpet.

For the past 6 months the strangest mixture of government, consisting of radical lefts, fascistoids like Kamenos, and European-supporting people, has been sitting on their asses with their thumbs up on it, and a couple of weeks back decided that they can bluff the guy accross the table that holds all the freaking chips with a stupid pot and an even stupidest hand...

Now everybody sees what's what though. SYRIZA seems to start coming to their senses, and they seem like they're going to "clean up house". That President of Parliament is a bitch and a half, with serious issues. Same goes for the leftest of the left, that they appointed (FFS) Minster of Restructuring & Reforms or whatever...


On the other hand you see the vindictive Germans and their satellites, that instead of rejoicing that Greece is coming to its senses and seems to have the strongest possible unity of recent years to pass strong and meaningful reforms, they prefer to say "screw all the years of hard work from everyone in the Eurozone, discussing, negotiating, changing, loaning, and paying back; let's scrap everything and send them on their way"...

When most of the Eurozone countries over the weekend came in and saw the government coming around and realising how the game is played, Germany should take the high road and get cracking. They could wrap up the "talks" in 5h, send them back to Greece to start writing a shitload of legislation that needs to get passed yesterday, but instead they starting acting crazy just to make everything impossible and get Greece out.



Also Finland acting how it does now, after Greece helped them get in the Euro is irony worth of an ancient Greek drama... Who by the way are also just using populistic anti-EU rhetoric to stay in government.


The whole of Europe is full of politicians just serving to their people what their people want to hear.

The Greeks are being told "the suffering will end" and they like it.
The Germans are being told "the lazy Greeks will suffer" and they like it.
The Fins are being told I-don't-even-know-what-that-right-wing-nut-is-even-saying-half-of-the-time.


And the problem remains that nobody stops to think, because feeling is easier and more powerful than thinking.
It's easy for people to feel they've had enough and lash out from whichever side.

What has proven to be difficult, is for people to sit around a god damn table and talk things out like a family. Maybe it's too early for the EU and we're asking too much of it. The US went through a civil war 100 years after they became a nation with a common language and a common political constitution, and the EU has vivid WW2 memories and only 23 years of an economic constitution to hold them together...



PS So far the only people that "lost money" on Greece have been the people that were involved in the PSI haircut. And even then, there were humongous losses within Greece that are today causing many of the problems. Bond holders were pension funds and universities that saw their reserves annihilated... In any case, bond holders are investors. I see people on EF very eager to talk down on people trying to recover from "bad investments" and equally eager to demand that other investments must always pay out no matter what. Double standards and all that...

PS2 So far, Germany is doing pretty well especially because of the on-going problems with Greece in the Eurozone. When they lose 1 cent, they have the right to start yelling their hearts out. Until then, they can enjoy their cheap currency, their increased exports, and lending money to EU partners with a pretty decent profit... I don't thing everybody here would claim that UBS "gave them money" to buy a house or something... It ain't over till it's over so let's wait and see what happens.
So you're calling the president of the Greek Parliament a bitch.
I hope there is some woman with self-respect in this forum to report you to the mods.
I won't do it because I may be considered biased.
I just love her.
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  #442  
Old 13.07.2015, 22:58
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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It is really difficult to make a discussion when you all assume that what I (as a member of this forum) want is more money to be given to Greece.
Seriously.
Every time I say something I have to add an asterisk where I explain that I do not want more money sent to Greece.
Otherwise you completely ignore my point and you go straight to why Greece must not receive more money. Guess what, we agree on that.
Greece must not receive more money.
Happy?

Now can you please read what I've written?
I think you might want to read what others have written as well. I really don't give a flip whether Greece gets more money or not. The whole situation borders on the ridiculous except for the consequences to all of the people involved in Greece and the EU who do not appear to have been well served by their leaders. There are many, many others with more skin in that game than I have. I was making a general point about the situation. If you want to be this sensitive, you certainly can be, but it may not be helpful to whatever point you are trying to make.
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  #443  
Old 13.07.2015, 23:28
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I think you might want to read what others have written as well. I really don't give a flip whether Greece gets more money or not. The whole situation borders on the ridiculous except for the consequences to all of the people involved in Greece and the EU who do not appear to have been well served by their leaders. There are many, many others with more skin in that game than I have. I was making a general point about the situation. If you want to be this sensitive, you certainly can be, but it may not be helpful to whatever point you are trying to make.
The point I've been trying to make is that the European people have been constantly betrayed by their leaders, and when one finance minister (Varoufakis) finally tried to show them reason they shut him off.
If I'm not mistaken more European tax money is about to be sent over to the black hole that is called Greece.
This is not my fault, it's not Varoufakis' fault and it's not the Greek people's fault because they surprisingly voted no when they were asked.

It is everybody else's fault, including Tsipras, Dijelbloem (whatever his name is spelled, I'm on my phone), Merkel, Lagarde and that hateful Schaeuble.
In a few months will be back discussing Greece.

Varoufakis was right from the beginning until the end.
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  #444  
Old 14.07.2015, 00:06
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

Nothing changed.
OK, so there will be more austerity (which everybody agreed wasn't exactly good for the country (or rather its people) - any country).
It will take years, decades to fix the Greek un-administration - under the premise that people really want it fixed. Which isn't very clear to begin with...
And then there's the 50 billion from privatizations:
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soz...a-1043454.html
And so on.

It should really be mandatory for politicians who propose such schemes to invest some of their own money.

My guess would be that within the next 18 months, Greece has used up all the money given to them now, with little to show in terms of progress. And then what? Another Ultra-Marathon-Summit?

How is this country ever going to be able to pay back 320 billion in debt? Even Germany doesn't really reduce its debt (maybe these days they do, under very special macro-economic conditions).

The whole summit was a theater-piece.
It was clear from the beginning that no additional haircut could be granted - other Southern-European states (who didn't get one, either) and esp. the Baltic states wouldn't allow Greece to get off easily.
So, it was good-cop vs. bad cop again. We all know who got the bad cop role.

Everybody hopes that in three years time, (s)he will be out of office in some cushy side-job without politics (or simply retired) and somebody else will have to pick up the pieces of broken glass. Thank god voters have very short memories...

This is all so retarded. And voters re-elect the same clowns every single time.
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  #445  
Old 14.07.2015, 00:11
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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As for Europe, it has presided over the economic collapse of a member state. Greece's economy has shrunk 25% in just five years.
To preside usually implies executive power, EU has anything but that. Nor was Greece a healthy state or working reasonably well when/after EU got seriously involved.

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The point I've been trying to make is that the European people have been constantly betrayed by their leaders, and when one finance minister (Varoufakis) finally tried to show them reason they shut him off.
If I'm not mistaken more European tax money is about to be sent over to the black hole that is called Greece.
This is not my fault, it's not Varoufakis' fault and it's not the Greek people's fault because they surprisingly voted no when they were asked.

It is everybody else's fault, including Tsipras, Dijelbloem (whatever his name is spelled, I'm on my phone), Merkel, Lagarde and that hateful Schaeuble.
In a few months will be back discussing Greece.

Varoufakis was right from the beginning until the end.
I think you sum up the greek's position quite well: It's everybody else's fault just not the greek's. Varoufakis is no better, each of the four points in his Modest Proposal amounts to "give us more money to spend".

Like it or not, the greeks got the government they collectively voted for since after the military government (including of course the last 15 years where all they essentially did was lie and cheat), this is the essence of democracy. Trying to blame whoever else they happen to chose doesn't help one bit, quite the contrary. It's more than time they finally bit the bullet and acknowledged that the only entity that can effect change are the greeks themselves.

Until that has happened and is being acted upon nothing will change, it'll just be more of the same old same old, unfortunatly including ever more misery especially for the weak.
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  #446  
Old 14.07.2015, 00:33
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

An opinion poll from Germany, showing that the “mental waterboarding” and “crucifying” of Alexis Tsipras wasn’t received too badly back home



64% satisfied with Schäuble's negotiations with Greece, 62% with Merkel.

Another opinion poll by ARD showed
87% of Germans: conditions for Greece adequate or too soft, only 13% say too tough
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  #447  
Old 14.07.2015, 08:54
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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I think you sum up the greek's position quite well: It's everybody else's fault just not the greek's.
Who is "the Greek"?
I am referring to a specific Greek, Varoufakis.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here and my best guess is that you meant to write "Greeks'" (with the apostrophe after the s). It's a common mistake that many people make in written English. If this is not the case, my apologies for assuming that your English is not perfect, but then please explain who is "the Greek" you are referring to.
It's not a problem if your English is not perfect, as long as what you're trying to say is clear.
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  #448  
Old 14.07.2015, 14:59
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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So you're calling the president of the Greek Parliament a bitch.
I hope there is some woman with self-respect in this forum to report you to the mods.
I won't do it because I may be considered biased.
I just love her.
I would say a lot more, and it has nothing to do with gender.

She is a self-important, arrogant, obsessed person that has been given one of the highest honours in the nation only to abuse her power on numerous occasions, overstep her authority on more, and just act bat shit crazy in countless...

She is creating committees upon committees, and then pushes the Parliament Channel the Parliament Channel (equivalent of the C-SPAN for our american friends) to show said activities so she will have her time on TV. This is confirmed (or better said reported) from employees in the parliament.

She was calling the Governon of the Greek Central Bank a few days before the capital controls were imposed, every day to come to the parliament and "explain" himself on various topics, including an independent report he gave that she didn't like!
The guy responded that "I'm busy talking with the ECB to keep the banks alive" and she was saying to reporters that she "has the power to have the police (!) bring him by force to the parliament".

She produced a report maintaining that the debt is "illegal, shameful, and unsustainable" and that the Greek government should not pay a dime. When during the press conferene she was asked "right now you're saying this to us and at the same time the PM and his delegation are negotiating to find a way to pay this very illegal debt - please comment". And instead of answering she started attacking personally reporters.

On the same matter in a prime-time news interview she started attacking personally the anchorwoman hinting to her boyfriend that happens to be the brother of a high-ranking politician of an opposing party.

She pressed the union of reporters and journalists to prosecute with disciplinary action people because they "copied the extortionate opinions of the lenders" (!).

And last but not least, when the parliament was to convene to authorize the Fin Min for the marathon-negotiations that lead to today, an authorization that got over 250 votes mind you, and she was stalling and abusing her power so that the vote happens too late or not to happen at all.



That THING, regardless of sex, should be called a lot more than what I did.

You can love her all you want, she's not ing up your country anyway so I guess she's kind of amusing from afar...
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  #449  
Old 14.07.2015, 19:13
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

In other news, Spain gets fined over misreporting...

Statistics, those dam' statistics and ....lies

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pr...data-valencia/

Now I'm waiting to see Podemos and other ahem, eccentrics, blaming who else, Germany.
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  #450  
Old 15.07.2015, 00:14
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

Now the IMF are threatening to reject the whole deal on the grounds the money offered to Greece is too small Ho Hum
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  #451  
Old 15.07.2015, 12:05
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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...The European crisis is a crisis of bad framing. Characterizing Europe-wide credit problems in terms of national actors, then fixing that characterization into place via intersovereign lending, were deeply pernicious, deeply destructive, errors. I don’t doubt these errors arose more from increments than ill intentions. There were pressures and interests and paths of less resistance — no need for any vast conspiracy. The international framing was convenient to domestic constituencies throughout Europe. In every country, elites find it convenient to deflect passions to an external bad actor rather than take responsibility for mistakes at home. Sometimes on the merits they have a case, sometimes not. Regardless, inflaming passions against another nation is always a terrible choice. Even when a dispute really is a zero-sum conflict of interest between two nations, great diplomacy is called for...
The full unadulterated (wonky) thing can be found here (interfluidity.com)

Ciao
Paul
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Old 15.07.2015, 23:23
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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...At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the €100
note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money,
and leaves town.
No one produced anything.
No one earned anything.
However, the whole village is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism.

And that is how the bailout package works!
No, this is a liquidity trap.
What I see here is a different thing:
A guy comes to rich and expensive country and works for a month in the agriculture. Then he looses his job, but asks his friends, also living in this rich country, to lend him some money to pay his food and rent.
After a while he decides to return back to his poor country, and he tells his friends that it will take 10 times longer than he thought to pay them back as he now is earning Drachmas and not Euros.
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Old 16.07.2015, 11:42
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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So you're calling the president of the Greek Parliament a bitch.
I hope there is some woman with self-respect in this forum to report you to the mods.
I won't do it because I may be considered biased.
I just love her.
She sounds like exactly your kind of person :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoi_Konstantopoulou
Quote:
In 2013 she was accused[4] by four rape victims of using all means to help her client, accused of the rape, avoid trial and conviction by delaying his trial by seven years, with two additional years of delays until the trial took place in 2015. According to the victims, the trials have been delayed mostly at the request of the attacker’s defender Zoe Konstantopoulou who has regularly raised procedural obstacles to postpone the trial even though she knew the victims had traveled all the way from Canada and Australia to attend the trial. Canadian victim Natalie Karneef has written extensively on her ordeal of delays.[5]

Mrs. Konstantopoulou has been censured by women's organisations as well as the Greek Helsinki Monitor who reported her to the United Nations High Commissioner for Humans Rights.[6] Potami leader and MP Stavros Theodorakis regularly taunts Mrs. Konstantonpoulou in parliament about her role in what has become known as the "rapist with cheese pies" scandal.[7] Recently Mrs. Konstantopoulou switched off the microphone whilst Mr. Theodorakis speaking in parliament made reference to her role in the affair.[8]
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  #454  
Old 17.07.2015, 16:16
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

Another little bit of history, provided by those fine folks at The Atlantic:
Quote:
...The markets had thought differently, with Greece having to pay more to borrow than countries such as Germany. The northern banks, seeing easy money, started lending to Greece, happily receiving higher fees for the “same risk.”

It was the beginning of a self-fulfilling feedback loop with the banks at the center. Southern Europe (especially Greece), started borrowing more, allowing them to buy more, which caused them to grow, which collapsed the cost of their borrowing, with led them to borrow more, and so on...
The rest of the article is here: Blame the Banks

Paul
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Old 17.07.2015, 22:57
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

So basically France and Germany bullied other Euro-zone (and not only) members into saving French and German banks? Am I missing something here?
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Old 18.07.2015, 00:08
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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So basically France and Germany bullied other Euro-zone (and not only) members into saving French and German banks? Am I missing something here?
No you're not. Nobody was bullied. everybody just shat in their pants and said "uh-oh we don't want a replay of 2008 again and this time with an epicentre in the EU banking sector", because banks.
It as simple as that, really.
Still surprised no bonus clawbacks in sight yet for all that cr*p.
But who knows?
P.
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Old 18.07.2015, 16:58
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Who is "the Greek"?
I am referring to a specific Greek, Varoufakis.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here and my best guess is that you meant to write "Greeks'" (with the apostrophe after the s). It's a common mistake that many people make in written English. If this is not the case, my apologies for assuming that your English is not perfect, but then please explain who is "the Greek" you are referring to.
It's not a problem if your English is not perfect, as long as what you're trying to say is clear.
Try logic, for once. The middle paragraph makes the answer to your "problem" perfectly clear.
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Old 20.07.2015, 08:03
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Try logic, for once. The middle paragraph makes the answer to your "problem" perfectly clear.
I really don't like your attitude and the way you try to offend people who disagree with you.
First you said that I agree with Varoufakis because we are both Greek, so we have to agree (because everyone knows that people from the same country have the same opinion). This of course ignores the plenty of Greeks who dislike Varoufakis, as well as several non Greek columnists who insist that his proposals made perfect sense against the German madness. I guess if you had Paul Krugman in this discussion you wouldn't tell him that his opinions are biased because he's Greek, would you?
Now you're telling me to try logiclogic.

Well guess what, I'm trying logic and my logic tells me to ignore you.
After all the issue is settled and apparently Greece is saved forever. Or is it?
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Old 20.07.2015, 08:14
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

Seems pretty simple to me.

Like the Bell curve.

When the population of a country becomes too cashed up the bankers and politicians screw the population and throw up smoke screens etc and the average person doesnt know who to blame.

Why make something that is so simple so complicated?

Maybe fear and wanting mama and papa figures ruling them has something to do with the masses' reaction to economic crisis.
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Old 20.07.2015, 08:25
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Re: Greece discussing leaving the Euro Zone (Spiegel Online)

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Seems pretty simple to me.

Like the Bell curve.

When the population of a country becomes too cashed up the bankers and politicians screw the population and throw up smoke screens etc and the average person doesnt know who to blame.

Why make something that is so simple so complicated?

Maybe fear and wanting mama and papa figures ruling them has something to do with the masses' reaction to economic crisis.
It's something like this.
The Greek populace is uneducated and needs a strong leader to follow.
Right now this is Tsipras. He even underestimated himself, when he was telling the people to vote for NO while secretly hoping they would vote for YES. But they love him so much that they did vote NO!
This people is helpless unfortunately.
This is why IMO the first step towards a solution is an exit from the Eurozone. Then at least they will stop borrowing money and just go back to printing devalued drachmas.


PS. As for Tsipras, he should enjoy it while it lasts. Hopefully not for long.
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