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  #41  
Old 01.12.2011, 15:24
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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Given that for all those who are not U.S. citizens that right ceased to exist quite some time ago, I say it was about time U.S. citizens got tarred with the same brush

Can you show me in the US Constitution where any right given to a US Citizen is also extended to a foreign citizen? That passage doesn't exist. Foreigners in the US do not have the same rights as American citizens. This is the same as I do not have the legal right to work in Switzerland, nor possess a firearm, nor vote, because I am not a citizen of Switzerland. Most rights for aliens in a host country are negotiated through treaties between the two countries (e.g. Schengen Agreement, E.U., NAFTA, etc.). However, the US freely chooses in the vast preponderance of instances to extend some or all American rights and liberties to foreigners both living in the US and foreigners whom have never set foot in the US.
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  #42  
Old 01.12.2011, 15:25
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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So, you're in favor of the US military taking suspects into custody for life without charge?

Because, that's what this thread is about!

Tom
No, I'm not in favor of the Military taking suspects into custody for life without charges among other things. (And I do know what this thread is about). I'm also not in favor of a person getting pulled over here in Switzerland and charged thousands of Swiss francs for being told they were tailing gating, or gave a foreign Driver's Licence. Or even the Woman charged 4000CHF for taking her child out of school for one day.

I am definitely not the Ostrich with my head in the sand, but the point I'm trying to make is S**T happens everywhere.

Maybe I chose the wrong thread (What the heck are Americans saying to the Swiss to tick them off) may have been a more appropriate thread, but this was where I took it out on.

Last edited by Mitziem; 01.12.2011 at 15:46.
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  #43  
Old 01.12.2011, 15:26
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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Our Senate just passed a bill that would allow our military to arrest US citizens in the US or anywhere in the world who are suspected of terrorist activities and hold them indefinitely without being charged and without a trial.

http://www.thebradentontimes.com/new..._police_state/

Since when does a suscpicion of terrorism trample on the rights of citizens to a formal charge and fair trial?? I'm just shocked

Its horrible. This presumably suspends posse comitatus in the US, and I have no hope the President will veto this horrible legislation; I can only pray it is challenged in court and struck down by the Supreme Court. In the meantime, I can only pray for anyone subjected to this horrible legislation.
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Old 01.12.2011, 15:30
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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makes me not a flip flopper.
Yep, people are raised in different ways. I was raised to think critically, analyze a situation and come to a conclusion, but also to be ready and able to change my mind in the face of changed circumstances or persuasive arguments. So I'm proud to flip flop if necessary. There is no one more frightening to me than someone who is so convinced of their opinions that they never see the need to question what they "know" or listen to arguments from the other side.

Last edited by Ziger; 01.12.2011 at 15:52. Reason: typos
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  #45  
Old 01.12.2011, 15:49
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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No, I'm not in favor of the Military taking suspects into custody for life without charges among other things. (And I do do what this thread is about). I'm also not in favor of a person getting pulled over here in Switzerland and charged thousands of Swiss francs for being told they were tailing gating, or gave a foreign Driver's Licence. Or even the Woman charged 4000CHF for taking her child out of school for one day.
Are you honestly trying to make a fair comparison here. Traffic fines may seem high to you but they come forth out of a political concensus which is ultimately democratically answerable (and changeable). This is quite different to democratic rights being limited in a knee jerk reaction to a perceived threat.

Besides which, do you honestly think traffic fines are in the same category of injustice as holding people in custody indefinitely without a trial?

Attitudes like that are pretty scary.

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I am definitely not the Ostrich with my head in the sand, but the point I'm trying to make is S**T happens everywhere.
and ... ??

does one wrong justify another?

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Maybe I chose the wrong thread (What the heck are Americans saying to the Swiss to tick them off) may have been a more appropriate thread, but this was where I took it out on.
If you scroll back and look at what you wrote you did specifically defend this specific measure though, as well as groan those who criticised you.
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  #46  
Old 01.12.2011, 15:49
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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No, what is being discussed is amendments to the bill and the republican amendments are as bad as everyone is making them out to be. But they also know that Obama will veto it if those amendments are in the bill that gets sent to him. Then they have some political capital to claim he isn't doing enough about terrorism etc. It is campaign season after all. There are also several democratic amendments that still have to be discussed and which would negate many of the worst parts of the republican amendments. So there is still a ways to go before any of this becomes law. Which means that now is not (yet) the time to panic, burn your American passport or nail Americans to the cross.

There is a good point in all this- This was passed by the Senate, but not the House (I think), and there still is a good bit of negotiation to come, and yes, a lot of the wording in the bill is horrible, while the name is catchy, virtually guaranteeing that there is more than the usual element of politics being played here. Both sides of the aisle in the US are notorious for doing this, especially as election fever rolls into DC. The 'out' party is trying to force the 'in' party into a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario. On the one hand, if the President signs the law, his opponents will pull excerpts from the law out of context and make political hay with it. On the other hand, if the President vetoes the law, then his opponents will claim he's soft on terrorism, etc. Never mind that the law is a horrible law.
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  #47  
Old 01.12.2011, 15:50
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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Yep, people ar raised in different ways. I was raised to think critically, analyze a situation and come to a conclusion, but also to be ready and able to change my mind in the face of changed circumstances or persuasive arguments. So I'm proud to flip flop if necessary. Thee r is no one more frightening to me than someone who is so convinced of their opinions that they never see the need to question what they "know" or listen to arguments from the other side.
You get frightened easily don't you? I have new found respect for my 6 and 2 year olds.
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  #48  
Old 01.12.2011, 15:54
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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The same reason you are on here defending your position. What gives you more right than me? And By the Way, you have your own many issues over there in the "UK". So get a handle on those before you meddle in someone else's problems.
Yes, the UK does have many problems, as does every country in this world. But if you'd read my earlier posts you'd have known that I carry a blue passport. Indeed, my family were among those who settled and then fought to form the United States - they fought for the rights which are so easily being dismantled these days.

I don't say I have any more right to discuss these things than you do. I - and everyone else here - is saying that we're not US bashing. We're legitimately concerned about a very scary issue back in the US. But I'm pretty sure I (and others) have said that before on this thread.

Back to the subject at hand, there is discussion that the law would be challenged in the supreme court. I truly hope it doesn't need to be this way, as that would mean at least one citizen would have been detained in the means outlined by the law. And that, my fellow citizens and non-citizens, is a very scary thing.
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  #49  
Old 01.12.2011, 16:03
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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  #50  
Old 01.12.2011, 16:07
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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Back to the subject at hand, there is discussion that the law would be challenged in the supreme court. I truly hope it doesn't need to be this way, as that would mean at least one citizen would have been detained in the means outlined by the law. And that, my fellow citizens and non-citizens, is a very scary thing.
You can challenge a law even if it does not directly or entirely affect you on the grounds that the law restricts people's right to free speech. So, if you are locked away without a trial or access to the US justice system because you have been arrested for maybe being a terrorist, that seems like a pretty severe limitation on one's right to free speech. A stretch maybe but ... Anyway, I don't think it will get that far.

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You get frightened easily don't you? I have new found respect for my 6 and 2 year olds.
I really shouldn't bother but...
You seem to enjoy arguing in a black and white manner. If you want to use me as a strawman to then knock me down, by all means. I spoke of critical thinking, which is something that is or should be available to adults, not children who are immature and still learning about everything. It is lovely that you have recently found some respect for your children.
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  #51  
Old 01.12.2011, 16:08
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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Its horrible. This presumably suspends posse comitatus in the US, and I have no hope the President will veto this horrible legislation; I can only pray it is challenged in court and struck down by the Supreme Court. In the meantime, I can only pray for anyone subjected to this horrible legislation.
It won't get vetoed. It's the Defense Reauthorization Bill. It is ritualistically passed every year without much debate, like so many other pieces of legislation.

If Obama does veto it, it will be the first sign of him owning a pair of steel ones that any of us will ever see... and in order for that to happen, proverbial hell will have to proverbially freeze over.
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Old 01.12.2011, 17:35
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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Can you show me in the US Constitution where any right given to a US Citizen is also extended to a foreign citizen? That passage doesn't exist. Foreigners in the US do not have the same rights as American citizens...
Actually, I beg to differ. Check it (the Constitution) out yourself.

When it comes to the US Constitution, the restriction of having to be a "Citizen" chiefly had to do with who could hold office, and not much more, other than in general terms.

The framers' intent and wording, particularly with respect to the rights protected by the Bill of Rights (the first 10 Amendments), deliberately avoided the use of such a term as "Citizen" — instead intentionally using the terms "people" and "person" when defining those rights. This was in the same spirit as the Declaration of Independence ("all men are created equal..." etc.). The American Republic was supposed to be a place were human rights were universally recognized, regardless of civil status.

But like I've already said in this thread, the folks in Washington pay no mind to the country's "law of the land" (see paragraph 2), preferring to invoke their own administrative law instead.
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Old 01.12.2011, 18:27
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

So let's add to the protest with a repeat of "taxation without representation." Expats get 'royally' screwed as, by definition, we do not have Congressional representatives that actually represent us.

fduvall

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If you're apathetic about what's been going on in your own country, so be it. For other US citizens like yours truly, informing others and protesting in our own way while far away from home is how we fight for our rights.
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  #54  
Old 01.12.2011, 19:33
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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So let's add to the protest with a repeat of "taxation without representation." Expats get 'royally' screwed as, by definition, we do not have Congressional representatives that actually represent us.

fduvall
Technically we do, as we are represented in which ever locality we choose to call home.

The only problem there is, that you have to have an address. Any expat that has truly vacated the US doesn't have an address in the US anymore. Rather a catch-22.
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Old 01.12.2011, 20:09
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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So let's add to the protest with a repeat of "taxation without representation." Expats get 'royally' screwed as, by definition, we do not have Congressional representatives that actually represent us...
...which is really little different than the treatment received by other Americans, depending on how you define 'representation'. (How much of what those so-called 'representatives' in Washington have done over the past 100 years would Americans have actually voted for, had they been given the chance?) Americans 'get to' vote for 'representatives' — but do you really believe those 'representatives' (regardless of party) effectively and faithfully represent (i.e., actually act in) the interests of the people (whether they're at home or abroad)?
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  #56  
Old 01.12.2011, 20:14
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

I do NOT have an address in the US anymore and have not since 2006 when I left. I could have one, but then I would pay state and local taxes. Since I do not plan on going back to this city/state, why would I want to continue to use this address?

So technically, no, I do not have representation. Nor do most of the expats that I know. I do not see the Catch-22.

fduvall

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Technically we do, as we are represented in which ever locality we choose to call home.

The only problem there is, that you have to have an address. Any expat that has truly vacated the US doesn't have an address in the US anymore. Rather a catch-22.
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Old 01.12.2011, 20:25
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

A very interesting article on the subject from George Takei, Star Trek star and all around interesting guy online.

He is an American citizen of Japanese heritage who grew up in a camp in America.

But yeah, Americans complaining about this are just US bashing.
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Old 01.12.2011, 20:47
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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Technically we do, as we are represented in which ever locality we choose to call home.
Do you really think that US representatives and senators give a crap about those who reside outside the US?

Tom
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Old 01.12.2011, 20:53
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Do you really think that US representatives and senators give a crap about those who reside outside the US?

Tom
Doesn't seem like many of them give much of a crap about their constituents residing in their districts within the US, let alone those outside.
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Old 01.12.2011, 20:55
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Re: USA once again headed toward Police State

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Do you really think that US representatives and senators give a crap about anything but the twin-party agenda?
Fixed that for you.
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