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  #21  
Old 16.01.2012, 11:50
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

So The Local will post the breaking news sometime tomorrow, right?
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Old 16.01.2012, 12:00
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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SS Andrea Doria comes to my mind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Andrea_Doria
Only 46 died on the Andrea Doria which is a good result all things considered. The Estonia one is real scary. German ship, Northern European company and it went down with 852 dead.

193 on the Herald of Free Enterprise also a shocker http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Hera...ree_Enterprise

We have done two MSC cruises (based in CH I believe) and they were great. Makes you think twice though.
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Old 16.01.2012, 12:04
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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I heard on the news yesterday that there is in fact a law that the captain is required to stay on board, and the penalty for not doing so is 12 years in prison.
No! Not quite true, § 517 HGB states:
(sorry German)
(1) Vom Beginn des Ladens an bis zur Beendigung der Löschung darf der Kapitän das Schiff gleichzeitig mit dem Steuermann nur in dringenden Fällen verlassen; er hat in solchen Fällen zuvor aus den Schiffsoffizieren oder der übrigen Mannschaft einen geeigneten Vertreter zu bestellen.
(2) Dasselbe gilt auch vor dem Beginn des Ladens und nach der Beendigung der Löschung, wenn das Schiff in einem nicht sicheren Hafen oder auf einer nicht sicheren Reede liegt.
(3) Bei drohender Gefahr oder wenn das Schiff sich in See befindet, muss der Kapitän an Bord sein, sofern nicht eine dringende Notwendigkeit seine Abwesenheit rechtfertigt.

The last line is improtant as it says that although a captain must be on board it makes an exemption that if it is necassary a captain can leave the ship. Remember the ship was dead and therefore a captain on the bridge is useless. On land however coordinating rescue would be the correct thing to do.
A captain going down with the ship is a cute Hollywood phantasy, nice, but it would amount to a death sentence and that would be cruel.
In the end it is every man for himself.
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Old 16.01.2012, 12:05
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

This latest debacle reminded of this one a few years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Sea_Diamond

Ran aground in broad daylight. Two people dissappeared.
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Old 16.01.2012, 13:32
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

so embarassing, so typically italian...
latest reports point more and more in the direction of a kind of stupid joke or unwanted hommage from the captain to the only "gigliese" on the staff, a maitre from the restaurant staff.
the captain called him in the command cabin to show him "look, we're passing so near to your home!", as a way to tease him because he shouldn't have been working that week.

enquiries are studying some disconcerting posts on facebook around the time of the tragedy to prove this.

another couple of ascertained facts: the rocks on which the ship collided are well known and charted. besides, they are visibile because they come up to the surface. they found them very quickly and were showing them last night on TV: they are still marked with the ship's red paint.

as for the distance from the coast, now this is clear. they were showing the route taken by the ship during those moments. this is what happened according to the latest reconstruction:

- the captain lightheadedly decides to go dangerously near the coast to pay his "hommage" to the island or the colleague (some say even to a legendary former Costa captain who was known for this kind of manoeuvres)
- the ship hits on the rocks
- the captain realizes immediately that something is wrong and pretty quickly that they are shipping water
- he does NOT send a radio alarm with the coastal guard, but tries to contact by telephone, informally (and less traceably) some patrols nearby, asking absurdly to send 2 tug boats
- passengers and their families at home (!) start calling desperately the Coastal Guard, carabinieri, police on land asking for help, saying that something is wrong and they have no indication from the ship's command
- Coastal Guard tries repeatedly to offer help, captain refuses saying that "it's just a blackout and we are solving the problem". it is out of the question that if he had immediately asked for help as would have been the logical thing to do the 6 ascertained + 16 probable victims might have been still alive.
- Captain does the only sensible thing he can do: he goes back, tries to go as near as possible to the shore, until the ship strands on the sand banks.

Costa is distancing itself today from the captain's behaviour, admitting he did a number of mistakes.
I don't think there is any doubt at all that he should have stayed on the ship to coordinate the rescue operations. the carabinieri tried to bring him back, there was no risk of him dying. italian law seems to be quite clear on that and his moral position isn't looking good at all.
besides, since when are moral values copyright of Hollywood?

the stories of the dead and missing people that have become known are simply tragic... it makes me so sad.
the real heroes at the moment are the divers who are trying to find the bodies in the ship. it's hell down there: things carpets, furniture of all kinds waving about. they constantly risk their lives to find their way in the labyrinth.

as for the ship, a specialised dutch company has declared that it should be possible to tug it away.

the possible possitive aftermath is that finally these monster ships will be banned from coming too near the shore, as many have been increasingly requesting (a great issue in venice, for instance, just imagine the impact)
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  #26  
Old 16.01.2012, 16:04
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

Most ships can be tracked in realtime:

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/#

Shame the tracking data for this has been removed or expired:

Hard to imagine sinking an entire suburb.
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  #27  
Old 16.01.2012, 16:13
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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A captain going down with the ship is a cute Hollywood phantasy, nice, but it would amount to a death sentence and that would be cruel.
In the end it is every man for himself.
That's quite an insult to all the captains through history that have stayed with their ships until all their passengers and crew have disembarked.
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  #28  
Old 16.01.2012, 16:24
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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A captain going down with the ship is a cute Hollywood phantasy, nice, but it would amount to a death sentence and that would be cruel.
In the end it is every man for himself.
Yeah, if the ship were in open water, and truly in danger of completely sinking, there is the risk of the captain dying, just as there is a risk of anyone else dying.

The image of the captain staying with this ship, in truth, is not the image of a bearded old salt calmly sitting in his chair, smoking his pipe on the bridge while the ship slowly slips below the waves; instead the purpose and intent is to ensure that senior leadership (i.e. the captain) remain onboard and maintain some semblance of order during the evacuation of the vessel such that as many people as possible are saved.

In this case, the captain failed in a multitude of ways- starting with his poor navigation of his ship and continuing with his abandonment of the people who had entrusted their lives and property in his skill and ability.
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  #29  
Old 16.01.2012, 16:45
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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No! Not quite true, § 517 HGB states:
(sorry German)
(1) Vom Beginn des Ladens an bis zur Beendigung der Löschung darf der Kapitän das Schiff gleichzeitig mit dem Steuermann nur in dringenden Fällen verlassen; er hat in solchen Fällen zuvor aus den Schiffsoffizieren oder der übrigen Mannschaft einen geeigneten Vertreter zu bestellen.
(2) Dasselbe gilt auch vor dem Beginn des Ladens und nach der Beendigung der Löschung, wenn das Schiff in einem nicht sicheren Hafen oder auf einer nicht sicheren Reede liegt.
(3) Bei drohender Gefahr oder wenn das Schiff sich in See befindet, muss der Kapitän an Bord sein, sofern nicht eine dringende Notwendigkeit seine Abwesenheit rechtfertigt.

The last line is improtant as it says that although a captain must be on board it makes an exemption that if it is necassary a captain can leave the ship. Remember the ship was dead and therefore a captain on the bridge is useless. On land however coordinating rescue would be the correct thing to do.
A captain going down with the ship is a cute Hollywood phantasy, nice, but it would amount to a death sentence and that would be cruel.
In the end it is every man for himself.
How is German law applicable here (other than for the fact zat effryzing shoult be Zerman)? Also, which "dringende Notwendigkeit" (urgent requirement) would you think applies here? The requirement to run the hell away from the fine mess he allegedly got the ship, her staff, and her passengers into?
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Old 16.01.2012, 17:00
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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Yeah, if the ship were in open water, and truly in danger of completely sinking, there is the risk of the captain dying, just as there is a risk of anyone else dying.

The image of the captain staying with this ship, in truth, is not the image of a bearded old salt calmly sitting in his chair, smoking his pipe on the bridge while the ship slowly slips below the waves; instead the purpose and intent is to ensure that senior leadership (i.e. the captain) remain onboard and maintain some semblance of order during the evacuation of the vessel such that as many people as possible are saved.

In this case, the captain failed in a multitude of ways- starting with his poor navigation of his ship and continuing with his abandonment of the people who had entrusted their lives and property in his skill and ability.
Oh, yeah, and once everyone is off the ship, then the captain still has the professional responsibility to ensure that the foundering vessel does not inadvertently kill, maim, or damage anyone or anything on its way down. Once he/she has done what can be done in this respect, only then is it time to jump into the last lifeboat off...
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Old 16.01.2012, 17:01
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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How is German law applicable here (other than for the fact zat effryzing shoult be Zerman)? Also, which "dringende Notwendigkeit" (urgent requirement) would you think applies here? The requirement to run the hell away from the fine mess he allegedly got the ship, her staff, and her passengers into?
exactly, it soon became evident that he was physically trying to run away. the prosecutor openly said he had to have him arrested because "with all his international contacts he would have otherwise been out of the country in no time".
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  #32  
Old 16.01.2012, 17:09
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

Whilst I agree with all things read - and if the Captain's actions did in fact cause this disaster - he must be held to account.

However, all this speculation was written about him so quickly I even wondered if he was being made a scapegoat as surely noone knows the real story and reason why this tragedy happened.

In fact, he might have saved a number of lives by bringing the ship in so close to land - we just don't know.
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Old 16.01.2012, 17:12
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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Whilst I agree with all things read - and if the Captain's actions did in fact cause this disaster - he must be held to account.

However, all this speculation was written about him so quickly I even wondered if he was being made a scapegoat as surely noone knows the real story and reason why this tragedy happened.

In fact, he might have saved a number of lives by bringing the ship in so close to land - we just don't know.
He was a few miles off-course, and in perfect weather conditions, and on a well-tested route. He was supposed to be in charge.

That's a summary of how guilty he is with no information.
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Old 16.01.2012, 17:19
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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How is German law applicable here (other than for the fact zat effryzing shoult be Zerman)? Also, which "dringende Notwendigkeit" (urgent requirement) would you think applies here? The requirement to run the hell away from the fine mess he allegedly got the ship, her staff, and her passengers into?
They are actually in fact international and there is no law in the maritime laws that say that the captain must remain on the ship. Don´t forget the ship was dead and if the captain can coordinate rescue from a off ship command center then that is where he must be. This special "captain" (note marks) however seems to be guilty of cowardence.
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Old 16.01.2012, 17:21
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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He was a few miles off-course, and in perfect weather conditions, and on a well-tested route. He was supposed to be in charge.

That's a summary of how guilty he is with no information.
Everything is hearsay at present.

- or perhaps you think we should get the gallows out now and string him up
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Old 16.01.2012, 17:27
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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That's quite an insult to all the captains through history that have stayed with their ships until all their passengers and crew have disembarked.
There have been those who went down with the ship and those who didn´t.
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Old 16.01.2012, 17:28
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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Everything is hearsay at present.

- or perhaps you think we should get the gallows out now and string him up
What shall we do with a drunken sailor?
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Old 16.01.2012, 17:30
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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He was a few miles off-course, and in perfect weather conditions, and on a well-tested route. He was supposed to be in charge.

That's a summary of how guilty he is with no information.
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Everything is hearsay at present.

- or perhaps you think we should get the gallows out now and string him up
What I said listed are the facts. They are undisputed. As they stand, things don't look good for the ship's Captain.

The other factors such as human or mechanical error will be investigated and come out in the investigation.
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Old 16.01.2012, 17:43
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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Whilst I agree with all things read - and if the Captain's actions did in fact cause this disaster - he must be held to account.

However, all this speculation was written about him so quickly I even wondered if he was being made a scapegoat as surely noone knows the real story and reason why this tragedy happened.

In fact, he might have saved a number of lives by bringing the ship in so close to land - we just don't know.
I must contradict, the facts are adamant for anyone who's followed the story.

his tough luck ist that there is no question of interpretation in this specific context due to all the incriminating evidence from telephone, internet and facebook. he messed up everything, apart from going back to the sand banks as already pointed out.
thank god at least for that, the victims and their families deserve justice at least.

now, in Conrad's time, he might have had a chance of getting away with it (but Lord Jim or his real life inspirator didn't either)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Jim

we seem to have a problems calling things by their name.
people are so shocked by his behaviour in italy that yesterday on the program I was watching they had called a psychiatrist to try and explain if the captain might have had a case of "dissociated behaviour" which made him forget about his "professional self"
maybe it's a just a politically correct definition for "cowardice"?
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Old 16.01.2012, 18:53
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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They are actually in fact international and there is no law in the maritime laws that say that the captain must remain on the ship. Don´t forget the ship was dead and if the captain can coordinate rescue from a off ship command center then that is where he must be. This special "captain" (note marks) however seems to be guilty of cowardence.
The law you quoted is German law, and not based on international treaties in any way.

Also, the very law you quoted says that the Captain must remain on the ship if she is in danger. Common doctrine and (German) jurisprudence hold that this means that before s/he leaves the ship, the Captain must be sure that (a) it is inevitable that the ship will sink, (b) s/he has seen to it that all hands and passengers are safe, and that the evacuation proceeds in an orderly fashion under the orders of another officer, and that (c) danger to other ships - and in more recent jurisprudence, the environment - is minimised.

Now (b) means that the Captain usually has to remain on board unless the evacuation is complete, or running smoothly with no forseeable problems. For (c), s/he may direct operations from somewhere else. Our Italian friend however jumped ship (quite literally) before (a) was ascertained - in fact, the ship has not sunk yet, she is beached (and slipping into deeper waters, but that is another story). Your points are therefore moot.
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