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  #41  
Old 16.01.2012, 19:19
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

this is how these monster ships like to "salute" our art cities, just to keep the toursits happy. I've seen them myself in venice and although I'm otherwise full of admiration for man's technical achievements let me tell you: the effect in the setting of a unique cultural heritage like venice is simply vulgar and obscene.

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/201...1/?ref=HRER1-1
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Old 16.01.2012, 23:30
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

Not arguing with you there. I am stating that there is no law for a captain to stay on the ship if rescue can be done more effectivly off ship.
Staying on board is tradition nothing more.
Nothing more, this bugger however seems to have jumped ship to save his own rotten hide


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The law you quoted is German law, and not based on international treaties in any way.

Also, the very law you quoted says that the Captain must remain on the ship if she is in danger. Common doctrine and (German) jurisprudence hold that this means that before s/he leaves the ship, the Captain must be sure that (a) it is inevitable that the ship will sink, (b) s/he has seen to it that all hands and passengers are safe, and that the evacuation proceeds in an orderly fashion under the orders of another officer, and that (c) danger to other ships - and in more recent jurisprudence, the environment - is minimised.

Now (b) means that the Captain usually has to remain on board unless the evacuation is complete, or running smoothly with no forseeable problems. For (c), s/he may direct operations from somewhere else. Our Italian friend however jumped ship (quite literally) before (a) was ascertained - in fact, the ship has not sunk yet, she is beached (and slipping into deeper waters, but that is another story). Your points are therefore moot.
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Old 17.01.2012, 09:02
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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Not arguing with you there. I am stating that there is no law for a captain to stay on the ship if rescue can be done more effectivly off ship.
Staying on board is tradition nothing more.
Yeah, but try proving at a board of inquiry that any captain was justified in leaving their vessel to effect its rescue. Not that it can't be done, but the weight of the evidence required on the captain's part would be more than monumental.
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Old 17.01.2012, 09:50
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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Yeah, but try proving at a board of inquiry that any captain was justified in leaving their vessel to effect its rescue. Not that it can't be done, but the weight of the evidence required on the captain's part would be more than monumental.

not quite the same case but something in between: they were making the comparison with the sinking of the Oceanos in 1991, in which the officers (!) with the captain's family left the ship. the captain stayed on board but proved to be useless.

"Captain Yiannis Avranas was accused by the passengers of leaving hundreds behind with no one other than the ship's onboard entertainers to help them evacuate. Avranas claimed that he left the ship first in order to arrange for a rescue effort, and then supervised the rescue effort from a helicopter. Avranas stated, "When I give the order abandon ship, it doesn't matter what time I leave. Abandon is for everybody. If some people want to stay, they can stay."" (wikipedia, here's the whole link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTS_Oceanos)

amazingly, everybody on board was saved by the heroic action of two onboard entertainers!
even more amazingly the captain was acquitted and resumed his job as a cruiser captain.

one similarity which is what contributed to the deaths of the concordia is that the crew did not give the alarm in both cases.
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Old 17.01.2012, 10:10
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

It is with all those example that I refuse to go on a cruise. People working on board don't have proper training in case of emergency.

Is there a recent exemple where a sinking cruise was properly coordinate by people on board?
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Old 17.01.2012, 10:15
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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It is with all those example that I refuse to go on a cruise. People working on board don't have proper training in case of emergency.

Is there a recent exemple where a sinking cruise was properly coordinate by people on board?
Not a sinking, but the Carnival Splendor incident is a great example of a cruise line handling a dangerous situation exceptionally well. This included the crew's handling of the situation, as well as the line management's handling of the situation.
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  #47  
Old 17.01.2012, 15:20
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

as if the whole story weren't appalling enough already, it sems now the captain was drunk...

they just broadcasted a blood-chilling phone call between him and the coast guard officer, in which the coast guard is ordering him to go back to the ship and the captain (from the lifeboat heading to the harbour) is telling him he can't: "you can't imagine how dark it is out here!"
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Old 17.01.2012, 15:51
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

I've been reading the 20 minutes article about the tragedy. All evidence points to a captain that was fully incompetent. The crew had to declare mutiny (disobeying the captain's instructions) in order to evacuate the boat.

As Peter's Principle would say: "in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence".
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  #49  
Old 17.01.2012, 15:56
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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as if the whole story weren't appalling enough already, it sems now the captain was drunk...

they just broadcasted a blood-chilling phone call between him and the coast guard officer, in which the coast guard is ordering him to go back to the ship and the captain (from the lifeboat heading to the harbour) is telling him he can't: "you can't imagine how dark it is out here!"
Available on the La Stampa website (in Italian, obviously - also contains the infamous "Get back on board! There are dead bodies there!" - "How many?" - "That's for you to tell me! Jesus Christ!" dialogue).

ETA for transcript (translation by Yours Truly):

De Falco: «This is [harbour master or commandante] De Falco from Livorno [harbour], is this the Captain speaking?
Schettino: «Yes, good evening commandante De Falco»
De Falco: «Would you please tell me your name?»
Schettino: «This is Captain Schettino, comandante»
De Falco: «Schettino? Listen Schettino. There are people trapped on board. You will go back, on your lifeboat, to the stern, starboard side. There's a rope ladder there. You will climb that rope ladder and go on board. You will go on board and report back to me how many people there are. Do you understand? I'm recording this phone call, Captain Schettino...».
Schettino: «Comandante I would like to tell you...»
De Falco: «Speak up! Shield the microphone with your hand and speak up, understand?».
Schettino:
«At the moment the ship is listing...».
De Falco:
«I know that. Listen: There are people cclimbing down the rope ladder at stern. You will climb up that rope ladder in the other direction, climb on board, and tell me wha'ts going on on board. Clear? You will tell me whether there are children, women or people in need of assistance. And you willl tell me how many of each of these there are. Is that clear?».
Schettino: [unintelligible]
De Falco: «Look Schettino, you may have escaped from the sea, but I... I will hurt you very badly indeed... I'll put you in all sorts of trouble. Go back on board, for f***'s sake!»
Schettino: «Comandante, please...»
De Falco:
«No "please"... you will man up now and go back on board. Assure me that you are going back on board!».
Schettino:
«I've just come here on the lifeboat, I'm here, I'm not going anywhere, I'm here...»
De Falco:
«What are you doing, Captain?»
Schettino:
«I'm here coordinating the rescue...»
De Falco:
«What are you coordinating from where you are? Go back on board. Coordinate the rescue on board. Do you refuse to do that?
Schettino:
«No, no, I don't refuse».
De Falco:
«Do you refuse to go back on board, Captain?? Tell me why you're not going back!»
Schettino:
«I'm not going because there is the other lifeboat now which is staying there [at the bottom of the rope ladder]».
De Falco: «Go back on baord, this is an order. Don't make any assessments of your own. You have ordered "Abandon Ship", so I'm in command now. You go back on board! Is that clear? Do you not hear me? Go now, call me back once you're back on board. My SAR team is already there».
Schettino: «Where is the SAR?»
De Falco: «The SAR are at stern. Hurry up. There are already dead bodies, Schettino».
Schettino: «How many dead bodies are there?»
De Falco: «I don't know. Somebody knows. Somebody was told about it. Jesus Christ, it's for YOU to tell ME how many there are!».
Schettino: «But are you aware that it's dark and we can't see a thing here?».
De Falco: «And that you want to go home Schettino? It's dark and you want to go home? Climb on the ship's stern using the rope ladder and tell me what can be done, how many people there are, and what they need! Now!».
Schettino: «OK, OK. I'm here with my first officer, actually».
De Falco: «Then the both of you go back. What's his name?
Schettino: [unintelligble]
De Falco: «Whatever. You and your first officer will climb back on board, now. Is that clear?».
Schettino: «Look commandante, I'd like to go back, but there's that other lifeboat there... there's all these rescue people, they've stopped there and have installed themselves there, I've now called other rescue staff...».
De Falco: «You've been telling me this for an hour now. Go on board now, GO - BACK - ON - BOARD. And tell me immediately how many people there are. ».
Schettino: «OK comandante»
De Falco: «Go, hurry!»

Last edited by tom tulpe; 17.01.2012 at 16:43. Reason: added transcript
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  #50  
Old 17.01.2012, 18:25
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

hey, Tom Tulpe, I'm absolutely impressed! fantastic translation. thanks for taking the time!
don't you want to join our Italian Conversation Group??
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Old 17.01.2012, 18:30
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

Looks more and more like the captain of the ship is (deservedly) going to be the scapegoat in all this.


Like I've said before- it's nice when the scapegoat is already a goat...
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Old 17.01.2012, 18:35
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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hey, Tom Tulpe, I'm absolutely impressed! fantastic translation. thanks for taking the time!
don't you want to join our Italian Conversation Group??
<takes bow>
when is it?
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Old 17.01.2012, 18:44
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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<takes bow>
when is it?
it hasn't started yet, but a nice little group (all nice girls, in case it helps your decision ) is interested. I was going to wait until the end of january to see if anybody else wants to join and then just start meeting and see what comes out of it.

not sure how to quote threads, here it is
ZH - Starting Italian Conversation Group
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Old 17.01.2012, 18:55
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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Looks more and more like the captain of the ship is (deservedly) going to be the scapegoat in all this.


Like I've said before- it's nice when the scapegoat is already a goat...

true, but there's never been a more "selfcondemning" scapegoat.
if only all other italian criminals in society and politics were so easy to bring to justice...

anyway he's in good company of at least a couple of other officers who were on the same lifeboat, fleeing from the ship. they, too, are being accused of manslaughter and abandoning the ship and risk up to 15 years.
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Old 17.01.2012, 20:59
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

I bet that the captain is originally from Pisa and that he grew up inside the famous tower.

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Old 18.01.2012, 08:40
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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I bet that the captain is originally from Pisa and that he grew up inside the famous tower.

Nah...and here's why: At least the Tower of Pisa builders tried to straighten the tower when they saw it leaning... This guy just jumped ship...
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Old 18.01.2012, 09:59
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

Ok folks, just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons....

It now appears that the ship sailed even closer on August 14th 2011 approx 230m off the shore of Giglio. Furthermore, this was authorised by Costa Cruises!! (of course they're denying this saying it was 500m off shore)

The exact path of the Liner on Aug 14th 2011 would have been within 200m of where the Ship struck the rocks.

Source:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16606405

I'm suggesting that seismic activity in the area since Aug 14th has caused the rocks to move so the charts which were once right are now wrong!

Captain gets off scot-free!
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Old 18.01.2012, 10:16
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

In the news I saw, they said the ship was at 150 m. of the rocks.
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Old 18.01.2012, 10:21
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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Captain gets off scot-free!
...except that he still failed in his duties to direct the evacuation of the ship for which he was responsible... And isn't there still a claim that he was intoxicated while actively directing the ship's course?
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Old 18.01.2012, 10:25
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Re: Costa Concordia cruise ship runs aground

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Ok folks, just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons....

It now appears that the ship sailed even closer on August 14th 2011 approx 230m off the shore of Giglio. Furthermore, this was authorised by Costa Cruises!! (of course they're denying this saying it was 500m off shore)

The exact path of the Liner on Aug 14th 2011 would have been within 200m of where the Ship struck the rocks.

Source:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16606405

I'm suggesting that seismic activity in the area since Aug 14th has caused the rocks to move so the charts which were once right are now wrong!

Captain gets off scot-free!
ha ha, you'd bet Lloyds are now sending out their best people to make sure they don't have to pay insurance, good luck with that
actually, if what they find out can help reveal the truth, they're welcome

interesting point about the Notte di San Lorenzo episode (by the way it was the night 9/10 august, not 14, wrong info from the paper), I'd missed that, I checked on a local newspaper who interviewed the head of the society which certified the security systems on board the ship. he claims Costa could not have known the exact route (although now they are claiming the route taken by schettino was not the authorised one). there are many means of checking taken routes by ships. so not only Costa but, as some are saying, the coastal guard, too, must have closed their eyes quite a few times for the sake of keeping the tourists happy with this stupid "salute" tradition of going too close to shore.

I wouldn't know of seismic activities. what I don't understand is how you can go sailing in tuscany with a british chart.
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