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  #21  
Old 13.04.2012, 11:44
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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It is not the job of a judge to ensure a conviction. At all.


No, they would be still commited in the place the person is sitting in front of their PC. If I send you anything illegal in the post do I comit the crime where I go to the post office, no matter if UPS decides to send my package from Asia to Europe over the US or not. If I insult somebody on facebook when I am in Switzerland am I liable under Swiss law even if the Facebook data center is in Finland.
Wasn't a young Brit extricated to the US recently, for hacking into USA security computer systems, from the UK?
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  #22  
Old 13.04.2012, 11:44
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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You imply that he's nicknamed "the hook" due to some nefarious deed or purpose.

Have you considered why he might be called "the hook"?
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  #23  
Old 13.04.2012, 11:47
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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Quite. That's my point (no pun intended).
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  #24  
Old 13.04.2012, 11:56
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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Quite. That's my point (no pun intended).
I wasn't implying anything apart from his nickname is the hook.
and I liked the pun
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  #25  
Old 13.04.2012, 11:59
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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Wasn't a young Brit extricated to the US recently, for hacking into USA security computer systems, from the UK?

mentioned in post 11

Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

I don't agree that he should be extricated but I can see why the USA is going after him, they have to make a point that no matter where you physically sit, if you hack into there computers they will come after you.

Now if only they went after there own tax dodging companies the same way.
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  #26  
Old 13.04.2012, 12:09
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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It's a bit like the debate around the nut case solder who killed loads of afghans in a way - the US decided he would be tried in the US so just took him there after unilaterally deciding "nope, in our view he can't be tried in afghanistan, sorry".
Technically, the US soldiers are not in Afghanistan as individuals. They are there as part of an occupying military force. So there is a case for arguing that Afghan civilian law does not apply to them. Rather, this soldier should be prosecuted for war crimes.
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  #27  
Old 13.04.2012, 12:51
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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It's a bit like the debate around the nut case solder who killed loads of afghans in a way - the US decided he would be tried in the US so just took him there after unilaterally deciding "nope, in our view he can't be tried in afghanistan, sorry".

Abu Hamza is a real top class twat and he does deserve to be in prison for influencing so many impressionable minds that al qaeda is the best thing since sliced bread however thats not really the main point. Its another example of it seemingly being the US having an over arching right to whisk people back when they want because they fancy trying them on their own turf.

Hamza has had a bad time of it, but arguably worse is Gary McKinnon who really hasn't done anything seriuos at all, is mentally ill and is looking at being banged up in the US becasue US military IT server protection is hopeless. Don't even mention Richard O'Dwyer whose life (and his motheres) is being ruined by absurdly over-the-top aggression from the American Justice system which has strong indications the pressure for such is coming ultimately from the Record Companies.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt in US justice and its a very modern and fair way to get tried, but the extradition of people to the US for crimes seems to be particularly one way and you do get the feeling that the US is using its power as the worlds number 1 economic and military force to bend the arms of governments who wouldnt otherwise agree to it.
Well these are crimes committed against the US. If the US doesn't have jurisdiction over them, who does? If we did not live in a world that had foreign embassies there by technically holding ownership over the land of which their offices reside at, and there fore hold jurisdiction over, that would be one thing. But if a US, German, Zimbabwe embassy has the right to operate in a foreign land and the office space it uses has diplomatic immunity, and diplomatic right of standing, then attacks on that piece of land are like an attack on the country itself. If embassies are not in a position to have the rights of country of which they represent, then they really aren't embassies at all.

They are more like Cindy's diner on the highway near Wadenswil. There's an American flag there, some American iconery, but not a true American anything.
And for attempting to set up terrorist camps in Oregon, something which I believe should be illegal as well, I think though, it is quite hypocritical. As there are hundreds, if not more, small groups of American militia men, some there as nationalists, some there as survivalists, but yet some there revolutionists, and they are overwhelmingly majority Anglo Saxon.
They train daily with machine guns and rifles, teach rhetoric, and they are not being shut down in the same rate of foreign influenced groups maybe.
There are times where they have been arrested, poorly, but mostly because of fire arms violations, and less on talk of taking over the government by use of force.
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  #28  
Old 13.04.2012, 13:08
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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And for attempting to set up terrorist camps in Oregon, something which I believe should be illegal as well, I think though, it is quite hypocritical. As there are hundreds, if not more, small groups of American militia men, some there as nationalists, some there as survivalists, but yet some there revolutionists, and they are overwhelmingly majority Anglo Saxon.
They train daily with machine guns and rifles, teach rhetoric, and they are not being shut down in the same rate of foreign influenced groups maybe.
There are times where they have been arrested, poorly, but mostly because of fire arms violations, and less on talk of taking over the government by use of force.

yes there are many fringe nutter groups all over the world, the difference being they have not (so far) managed to blow people up or aligned themselves to a 'group' that has and has been declared illegal in the USA and UK etc, I'm pretty sure if one the USA nutter groups turned around and told the world they where now the US branch of al qaeda they would be stamped on hard and fast
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  #29  
Old 13.04.2012, 13:17
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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yes there are many fringe nutter groups all over the world, the difference being they have not (so far) managed to blow people up or aligned themselves to a 'group' that has and has been declared illegal in the USA and UK etc, I'm pretty sure if one the USA nutter groups turned around and told the world they where now the US branch of al qaeda they would be stamped on hard and fast
Yea I see your point, but that's being too obvious(being from a Nutter group perspective). It is still illegal to get as far as conspiring to over throw the US government, or the same as an attack on anyone.
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  #30  
Old 13.04.2012, 13:45
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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Yea I see your point, but that's being too obvious(being from a Nutter group perspective). It is still illegal to get as far as conspiring to over throw the US government, or the same as an attack on anyone.
Being a nutter is absolutely legal in the USA. The Second Amendment even (arguably) upholds the rights of nutter groups to mess around with weapons and pretend to be preparing to overthrow the government. It is only when they actually start following up their rhetoric with actions that the government will react. And they will react very hard. But as long as they're just posturing, nobody cares (and I'm sure the more dangerous of these groups are under observation just in case)
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  #31  
Old 13.04.2012, 14:44
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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Well these are crimes committed against the US. If the US doesn't have jurisdiction over them, who does? If we did not live in a world that had foreign embassies there by technically holding ownership over the land of which their offices reside at, and there fore hold jurisdiction over, that would be one thing. But if a US, German, Zimbabwe embassy has the right to operate in a foreign land and the office space it uses has diplomatic immunity, and diplomatic right of standing, then attacks on that piece of land are like an attack on the country itself. If embassies are not in a position to have the rights of country of which they represent, then they really aren't embassies at all.
Ok, so under that logic why isnt this chap being extradited to india: http://www.examiner.com/asian-commun...spect-to-india ?

I don't get it. he's wanted in connection with a crime in india but the US refuses to extradite him because they have decided they will put him on trial in the US ? Doesnt seem to tally with the UK cases, where they could be put on trial in the UK, but the US is demanding they are tried over there.
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  #32  
Old 25.09.2012, 08:05
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

The five terrorists have lost their appeals to the Grand Chamber of the European court, which has refused to look at their cases.

They will all shortly be sent to the US for trial, which I am quite happy about. They have not yet been tried for their crimes against
US Embassies in Africa and other anti US terrorist activities, like training and recruiting terrorists. I am glad to see them go.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19706404

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17662054

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17663629
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  #33  
Old 25.09.2012, 12:10
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

i was quite pleased when i saw that yesterday, about time too.

I saw this also.. made me chuckle anyway.


Last edited by rob1; 25.09.2012 at 13:04.
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  #34  
Old 27.09.2012, 01:44
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

Well they aren't on the plane yet! Even more appeals, paid for by the UK tax payer of course. Immigration will have to move quicker next time: have the van outside the court, police escort ready, engines running, cargo plane chartered at military airport...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/abu-hamza-l...132340693.html
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  #35  
Old 27.09.2012, 02:04
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

FFS its a proper piss take. he is going down the mental health deterioration route...

ill bet a few beers he doesnt go to the US! if he does he had better like water sports!
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  #36  
Old 27.09.2012, 09:53
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

The five "terrorists"?? Suspects surely.

In all the different terrorism cases that we see paraded before us in the news, I believe sometimes it's pretty easy to see which people are out and out terrorists, but the case against some of these guys just stinks. For instance, 8 years of detention for Ahmed because the UK didn't have enough evidence to charge him with anything and I'm supposed to believe that is a terrorist in their hands?

Not to mention the issue of dubious terrorism charges in the US these days...

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The five terrorists have lost their appeals to the Grand Chamber of the European court, which has refused to look at their cases.

They will all shortly be sent to the US for trial, which I am quite happy about. They have not yet been tried for their crimes against
US Embassies in Africa and other anti US terrorist activities, like training and recruiting terrorists. I am glad to see them go.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19706404

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17662054

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17663629
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  #37  
Old 27.09.2012, 10:19
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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The five "terrorists"?? Suspects surely.

In all the different terrorism cases that we see paraded before us in the news, I believe sometimes it's pretty easy to see which people are out and out terrorists, but the case against some of these guys just stinks. For instance, 8 years of detention for Ahmed because the UK didn't have enough evidence to charge him with anything and I'm supposed to believe that is a terrorist in their hands?

Not to mention the issue of dubious terrorism charges in the US these days...
And there we have it, everything that sums up what is wrong with Britain today.

These 'terrorists', suspect, nutters, loonies, extremists, sympathisers, hooligans, mad men (me I like to call them scum of the earth) ......whatever you want to call them, should have been kicked out the country a decade ago.

Would have saved the tax payers who live in the country, which these 5 individuals hate and want to destroy an awful lot of money.

Last edited by BonBon; 27.09.2012 at 10:34.
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  #38  
Old 27.09.2012, 10:59
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

Are you saying that if it costs too much, we shouldn't bother with due process and the rule of law?

I am also curious about your claim that Babar Ahmed (the only case I'm slightly familiar with because of the press coverage it received) hates and wants to destroy Britain, whether you can back that up with a statement or action attributed to him?

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And there we have it, everything that sums up what is wrong with Britain today.

These 'terrorists', suspect, nutters, loonies, extremists, sympathisers, hooligans, mad men (me I like to call them scum of the earth) ......whatever you want to call them, should have been kicked out the country a decade ago.

Would have saved the tax payers who live in the country, which these 5 individuals hate and want to destroy an awful lot of money.
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  #39  
Old 27.09.2012, 11:15
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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Are you saying that if it costs too much, we shouldn't bother with due process and the rule of law?

I am also curious about your claim that Babar Ahmed (the only case I'm slightly familiar with because of the press coverage it received) hates and wants to destroy Britain, whether you can back that up with a statement or action attributed to him?
No, I they are saying that the due process of law has too many avenues of appeal and therefore people such as Abu Hamza abuse it to prolong their stay in Britain when in fact the process of appealing should by now have been exhausted.
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  #40  
Old 27.09.2012, 11:30
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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The five "terrorists"?? Suspects surely.

In all the different terrorism cases that we see paraded before us in the news, I believe sometimes it's pretty easy to see which people are out and out terrorists, but the case against some of these guys just stinks. For instance, 8 years of detention for Ahmed because the UK didn't have enough evidence to charge him with anything and I'm supposed to believe that is a terrorist in their hands?

Not to mention the issue of dubious terrorism charges in the US these days...
I can't be bothered to go back and prove it to you, but haven't they all been suspected of "Terrorist" crimes already in the UK? Isn't this why they are locked up to protect us all from more 7/7 atrocities? There are laws to protect these "Innocent" people from bad justice, and they have used these laws to escape further trials and further judgement. I think you are very biased against European justice. If you are in a European country then you get good, slow, justice. This has been admirably demonstrated by taking eight years to reach a deportation order: in many countries they would have been executed eight years ago.

And why has nobody come forward with evidence of their innocence?
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