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Old 13.04.2012, 02:13
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Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

The European Court of Human Rights has backed the extradition of Abu Hamza and four other terror suspects from the UK to the US. Prime Minister David Cameron said he was "very pleased" with the news. The family of one of the men, Babar Ahmad, who has been held for a record of nearly eight years without trial, said he would fight on against extradition,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17657814
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Old 13.04.2012, 03:42
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

And?

Is this good news for you? Bad news for you? I'm confused.

What's the Swiss angle? Did one of them resist arrest by flourishing a Toblerone?
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Old 13.04.2012, 06:38
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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And?

Is this good news for you? Bad news for you? I'm confused.

What's the Swiss angle? Did one of them resist arrest by flourishing a Toblerone?
Are you serious? It's in the International Affairs section...and more over would you like to be held for 8 years without a trial?
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Old 13.04.2012, 07:07
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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Are you serious? It's in the International Affairs section...and more over would you like to be held for 8 years without a trial?
I do not think the problem is the time it took, that was of course so long cause the suspects used every possibility to lenghten it and fight extradiction. Given what they are facing, I think everyone would have done the same.

The key in my eyes is the problem that the US apparently believes it has the jurisdiction over any person on this planet. If a guy comits a crime in the UK, he should be trialed based on UK law in the UK. End of story. The US apparently expects everyone to know the US laws and act accordingly, no matter where they are. Ignorance at its best.

I see the US having a point in technically defunct countries or places where a decent trial cannot be carried out... but those cases should be handled by an international court and not Team America World Police. And I am not sure if the UK qualifies as defunct...
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Old 13.04.2012, 07:38
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

I agree with you Treverus, he spent 8 years fighting the extradition, so he prolonged it himself. But why couldn't the UK simply put them on trial?

Maybe the UK doesn't have enough evidence, and until recently you could not be tried twice for the same crime, so the prosecution would tread carefully until they had collected enough good evidence. And yet the extradition would only go ahead if the UK judge saw there was enough evidence to ensure a conviction in USA. I find it very strange, but at the same time I am happy the problem has "gone away". Maybe it was a question of timing: perhaps the US filed the extradition before the UK were ready with the prosecution, and the UK saved some money by allowing the extradition to become the priority.

I suppose as several world terrorist accusations rely on E-Mail evidence gathered on US servers, then the crimes were technically commited on US territory.
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Old 13.04.2012, 07:56
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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And yet the extradition would only go ahead if the UK judge saw there was enough evidence to ensure a conviction in USA.
It is not the job of a judge to ensure a conviction. At all.

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I suppose as several world terrorist accusations rely on E-Mail evidence gathered on US servers, then the crimes were technically commited on US territory.
No, they would be still commited in the place the person is sitting in front of their PC. If I send you anything illegal in the post do I comit the crime where I go to the post office, no matter if UPS decides to send my package from Asia to Europe over the US or not. If I insult somebody on facebook when I am in Switzerland am I liable under Swiss law even if the Facebook data center is in Finland.
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Old 13.04.2012, 07:56
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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The key in my eyes is the problem that the US apparently believes it has the jurisdiction over any person on this planet. If a guy comits a crime in the UK, he should be trialed based on UK law in the UK. End of story. The US apparently expects everyone to know the US laws and act accordingly, no matter where they are. Ignorance at its best.
It's interesting that you see the problem as one of America seeking extradition and not a problem of Britain capitulating....

He's been in a Brit prison for 8 years. He was sentenced by the Brits for 7 years for the UK crimes of which he was found guilty. What he's objecting to is the very real possibility of being sent to the US to serve a further, much likely longer sentence, instead of simply being released at this point for time served not to serve out his sentence or be found guilty. He was already found guilty.
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Old 13.04.2012, 08:16
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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It's interesting that you see the problem as one of America seeking extradition and not a problem of Britain capitulating....

He's been in a Brit prison for 8 years. He was sentenced by the Brits for 7 years for the UK crimes of which he was found guilty. What he's objecting to is the very real possibility of being sent to the US to serve a further, much likely longer sentence, instead of simply being released at this point for time served not to serve out his sentence or be found guilty. He was already found guilty.
Of course is it a chicken and egg problem: Is the US bullying or the UK giving in too fast?

But honestly: I think it is mainly a US problem - the US seems to be convinced that everyone who is deemed dangerous should be locked up somewhere as long as they want to... (see our extensive Guantanamo thread.). The guy is a convicted terrorist, got his sentence and after this deserves to get out - just like any other criminal. The UK would be completely able to keep them under control themselves or do you think that they would not keep a close look on their actions after a release?

They are muslim extremists and no, I would not want them to be my neighbours. But that does not give one the right to lock them up for life. Let alone to send them somewhere else if your law system intentionally does not give you the opportunity to lock them up for life.

The core is always the same: Crimes count double if you happen to be a Muslim extremist. And as much as I disagree with the terrorists do I also disagree to throw the most basic legal principles out of the window to lock them up. These moral principles are the exact point why we are better then the terrorists.
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Old 13.04.2012, 08:20
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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Of course is it a chicken and egg problem: Is the US bullying or the UK giving in too fast?

But honestly: I think it is mainly a US problem - the US seems to be convinced that everyone who is deemed dangerous should be locked up somewhere as long as they want to... (see our extensive Guantanamo thread.). The guy is a convicted terrorist, got his sentence and after this deserves to get out - just like any other criminal. The UK would be completely able to keep them under control themselves or do you think that they would not keep a close look on their actions after a release?

They are muslim extremists and no, I would not want them to be my neighbours. But that does not give one the right to lock them up for life. Let alone to send them somewhere else if your law system intentionally does not give you the opportunity to lock them up for life.

The core is always the same: Crimes count double if you happen to be a Muslim extremist. And as much as I disagree with the terrorists do I also disagree to throw the most basic legal principles out of the window to lock them up. These moral principles are the exact point why we are better then the terrorists.
They're not sending him to America because they don't like him, they're sending him to America for a different set of crimes which did not happen on UK soil....
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Old 13.04.2012, 08:23
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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they're sending him to America for a different set of crimes which did not happen on UK soil....
So what's the problem?
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Old 13.04.2012, 08:32
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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They're not sending him to America because they don't like him, they're sending him to America for a different set of crimes which did not happen on UK soil....
It's a bit like the debate around the nut case solder who killed loads of afghans in a way - the US decided he would be tried in the US so just took him there after unilaterally deciding "nope, in our view he can't be tried in afghanistan, sorry".

Abu Hamza is a real top class twat and he does deserve to be in prison for influencing so many impressionable minds that al qaeda is the best thing since sliced bread however thats not really the main point. Its another example of it seemingly being the US having an over arching right to whisk people back when they want because they fancy trying them on their own turf.

Hamza has had a bad time of it, but arguably worse is Gary McKinnon who really hasn't done anything seriuos at all, is mentally ill and is looking at being banged up in the US becasue US military IT server protection is hopeless. Don't even mention Richard O'Dwyer whose life (and his motheres) is being ruined by absurdly over-the-top aggression from the American Justice system which has strong indications the pressure for such is coming ultimately from the Record Companies.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt in US justice and its a very modern and fair way to get tried, but the extradition of people to the US for crimes seems to be particularly one way and you do get the feeling that the US is using its power as the worlds number 1 economic and military force to bend the arms of governments who wouldnt otherwise agree to it.
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Old 13.04.2012, 10:04
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

Don't worry. It won't be No 1 for long.

Question is - when the time eventually comes, would you rather deal with the Septics or the Chinese when it comes to extraditions/trials?
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Old 13.04.2012, 10:14
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

The Brits have nowhere "sanitized" where the accused could be held anonymously. The Isle of Wight is a poor second to Guantanamo.
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Old 13.04.2012, 10:50
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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The Brits have nowhere "sanitized" where the accused could be held anonymously. The Isle of Wight is a poor second to Guantanamo.

What about the Falklands ?
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Old 13.04.2012, 10:53
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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It's interesting that you see the problem as one of America seeking extradition and not a problem of Britain capitulating....

He's been in a Brit prison for 8 years. He was sentenced by the Brits for 7 years for the UK crimes of which he was found guilty. What he's objecting to is the very real possibility of being sent to the US to serve a further, much likely longer sentence, instead of simply being released at this point for time served not to serve out his sentence or be found guilty. He was already found guilty.

...or he'll be locked away in Guantanamo and never be tried by the US at all.
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Old 13.04.2012, 10:55
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

WTF! has anyone actually taken the time to bother reading why the USA wants these 2??

they both committed crimes against the USA, and the USA wants them, one committed crimes in the UK ( Abu Hamza ) and served time there too.

Both are a couple of top class scum bags, and if the USA want them then they can have them and save the UK tax payer from having to look after them.

Now I'm no fan of the USA, and I'm often accused of being an american basher, but in this case they have it spot on, its just a shame the ridiculous human rights laws allow these two idiots to drag it on this long, costing a fortune and once again making the UK an international laughing stock.
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Old 13.04.2012, 11:15
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

good, its about time. the tax payer has been paying for his benefits and house for years, he recently moved to a much larger house, again at the cost of the tax payer... he must have been laughing his hook off every day.
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Old 13.04.2012, 11:24
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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And yet the extradition would only go ahead if the UK judge saw there was enough evidence to ensure a conviction in USA.
It is not the job of a judge to ensure a conviction. At all.
This is confusing the issue.

There are two court cases:
1) the US vs. the defendant
2) the UK extradition case vs. the defendant

The US has applied for extradition for a person or persons thought guilty of a crime in a country that it has extradition agreements with.

To honour this agreement, the UK is bound to consider applications on their merits and whether the case brought against the defendant is legitimate.

That is where a UK judge has to review the case and see if in his opinion a conviction can be reached with the evidence presented - not whether the person is guilty or not. If s/he feels conviction cannot be obtained on the evidence presented, then he can turn down the application for extradition.

I think this is what is meant.
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Old 13.04.2012, 11:36
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

Regardless of which country gets him (the guys nicknamed the hook), I hope they lock him up and he rots to death.
And for those of you that think this is a bit strong, read up on this guys history and what he has done and tried to do in the past.
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Old 13.04.2012, 11:41
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Re: Man held for nearly 8 years without trial, to be extradited to USA

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(the guys nicknamed the hook)
You imply that he's nicknamed "the hook" due to some nefarious deed or purpose.

Have you considered why he might be called "the hook"?

Last edited by Carlos R; 13.04.2012 at 12:14. Reason: facepalm removed - my mistake...
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