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  #281  
Old 04.05.2015, 16:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I support freedom of expression as well - but that doesn't mean I'll be burning the Swiss flag at the next Schwingfest, for example. Sure, they have a right to free speech, but the event was intended to provoke a response.
Provoke a response or not, shooting people because you don't like their point of view is just plain wrong. By all means protest outside the event with placards, etc, but driving up and start shooting - no.

What really annoys me is these people enjoy the "freedom of speech" denied them by so many Muslim countries and still can't get it into their heads exactly what that means regarding their religion. You may be offended by the event, but it doesn't give you the right to kill people because of it.

I'm with pilatus1, it would have been much better publicity for Islam if they had come out to defend the event. Instead this has just added yet another to the tally of killings which simply alienate more and more people against the religion as a whole - rather than against the actual perpetrators.
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  #282  
Old 04.05.2015, 16:04
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Provocative; I just do not see the sense of it.

Suppose as an extreme example I get together with some other people who belong to no religion and we announce we find religious observance to be highly offensive.
Then some nutjobs in our group say Church services are provocative and start running around with heavy weapons.

Crazy, oder?
You describe the Charlie point of view: all religions deserve being ridiculed.

Considering the contest was targeting Islam exclusively, and that it was held in a fundamentally christian state (creationism is even taught in school as an alternative "theory" to Darwins Theory of Evolution), it seems to me there's a big difference between this contest and the Charlie approach.

In my eyes the whole thing is just stupid, without sense, a waste, by all involved.
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  #283  
Old 04.05.2015, 16:21
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You describe the Charlie point of view: all religions deserve being ridiculed.

Considering the contest was targeting Islam exclusively, and that it was held in a fundamentally christian state (creationism is even taught in school as an alternative "theory" to Darwins Theory of Evolution), it seems to me there's a big difference between this contest and the Charlie approach.

In my eyes the whole thing is just stupid, without sense, a waste, by all involved.

Participants think it is a struggle for truth, but it has turned out to be a struggle for the right to be stupid and ignorant.
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  #284  
Old 04.05.2015, 16:43
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Participants think it is a struggle for truth, but it has turned out to be a struggle for the right to be stupid and ignorant.
Yeah. A pissing contest.
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  #285  
Old 04.05.2015, 16:48
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Will they be hosting a "Draw Jesus as a Faggot" event any time soon?
Would a place get shot up if they did?
I wouldn't like to bet either way in the South. I really can't see it going peacefully though.
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  #286  
Old 04.05.2015, 17:06
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I'm thinking of John Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men". George takes Lennie to a field and shoots him in the back of the head. Maybe we should just deal with the Lennies on our side of the camp, instead of worrying about the Lennies in the other camps.
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  #287  
Old 04.05.2015, 18:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Sure, they have a right to free speech, but the event was intended to provoke a response.
but the entire rationale behind protecting free speech is to protect the individual's right to provoke a response.



I agree that hosting a Muhammad cartoon contest is stupid and a waste of an otherwise perfectly good evening, and I have a protected right to call it stupid as loudly and as publicly as I want. anybody, however, who would respond to the event through anything other than free speech does not deserve to participate as a member of what alleges itself to be a civilized society.

after all, if we started shooting all of the bigots everywhere in the world, we would quickly find ourselves out of ammunition.
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  #288  
Old 04.05.2015, 18:03
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Will they be hosting a "Draw Jesus as a Faggot" event any time soon?
You mean before I start drawing I have to dress up as a faggot
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  #289  
Old 04.05.2015, 18:18
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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but the entire rationale behind protecting free speech is to protect the individual's right to provoke a response.



I agree that hosting a Muhammad cartoon contest is stupid and a waste of an otherwise perfectly good evening, and I have a protected right to call it stupid as loudly and as publicly as I want. anybody, however, who would respond to the event through anything other than free speech does not deserve to participate as a member of what alleges itself to be a civilized society.

after all, if we started shooting all of the bigots everywhere in the world, we would quickly find ourselves out of ammunition.
Where did anyone on this thread condone shooting anyone?

I don't believe there is anyone questioning the right to draw cartoons of Mohammud in the US - or the right to provoke a response (at least the Muslim extremists don't do it openly and aren't campaigning to have the laws changed.)

That doesn't mean that the event wasn't a pitiful, disrespectful way of advancing one's own hate-filled agenda (in this case, to me, although not so much in Charlie Hebdo scenario).

If I lived in Texas, i'd have the right to shoot a five year old in the back if they tried to steal a pack of chewing gum from my store. That's the law - but it doesn't make me undeserving "to participate as a member of what alleges itself to be a civilized society" for thinking that the action is a bit excessive, now does it?
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  #290  
Old 04.05.2015, 18:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I don't believe there is anyone questioning the right to draw cartoons of Mohammud in the US - or the right to provoke a response (at least the Muslim extremists don't do it openly and aren't campaigning to have the laws changed.)
I'd reckon that firing a weapon at the cartoon event might be construed as "questioning the right to draw cartoons", don't you?

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  #291  
Old 04.05.2015, 18:49
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I'd reckon that firing a weapon at the cartoon event might be construed as "questioning the right to draw cartoons", don't you?

No, i'd consider it a crazy emotional response based on religious brainwashing, coupled with a lack of respect for human life, free speech, democracy, etc.

Writing one's congressmen/women or senators and campaigning to have the laws changed regarding freedom of speech is another story.

You seem to have come to the conclusion that I support or sympathize with the would-be killers just because I don't agree with the (yes, entirely legal) event.

If I were to shoot the Billag man out of rage, would you consider that as me just questioning my rights?
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  #292  
Old 04.05.2015, 18:57
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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No, i'd consider it a crazy emotional response based on religious brainwashing, coupled with a lack of respect for human life, free speech, democracy, etc.

Writing one's congressmen/women or senators and campaigning to have the laws changed regarding freedom of speech is another story.

You seem to have come to the conclusion that I support or sympathize with the would-be killers just because I don't agree with the (yes, entirely legal) event.
no, I don't think you support the would-be killers, and I apologize if I gave that impression.



as for the "brainwashing" comment - the whole purpose of organized religion is to brainwash. and the elephant in the room with these kinds of events is figuring out who is actually qualified to tell us who the "real Muslims" are? and by that I do not mean to single out Muslims, the same problem occurs with every religion - for example, when child rape is institutionalized for at least several decades (if not centuries), who is actually qualified to tell us who the "real Catholics" are?
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  #293  
Old 04.05.2015, 19:25
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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but the entire rationale behind protecting free speech is to protect the individual's right to provoke a response.



I agree that hosting a Muhammad cartoon contest is stupid and a waste of an otherwise perfectly good evening, and I have a protected right to call it stupid as loudly and as publicly as I want. anybody, however, who would respond to the event through anything other than free speech does not deserve to participate as a member of what alleges itself to be a civilized society.

after all, if we started shooting all of the bigots everywhere in the world, we would quickly find ourselves out of ammunition.
About "if we started shooting all of the bigots everywhere in the world, we would quickly find ourselves out of ammunition" Unless we start with ourselves
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  #294  
Old 05.05.2015, 00:31
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I'm thinking of John Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men". George takes Lennie to a field and shoots him in the back of the head. Maybe we should just deal with the Lennies on our side of the camp, instead of worrying about the Lennies in the other camps.
What do you mean? Kill the imbeciles?

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[...]when child rape is institutionalized for at least several decades (if not centuries), who is actually qualified to tell us who the "real Catholics" are?
As the catholics are hierarchichally organized it's the pope (subject to the topic of course, theoretically the bible reigns supreme). Which raises the question, who defines who qualifies for being a muslim? According the the Quran translation I've read it's the person (believer) himself.

Last edited by Urs Max; 05.05.2015 at 00:42.
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  #295  
Old 05.05.2015, 03:29
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Nice one. Where'd he get it?
Tshirtstoreonline.com

Well, we bought it in the shop but they have a website...and some pretty clever t-shirts. Certainly more original than another innocuous palm tree surfer image...
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  #296  
Old 05.05.2015, 10:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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As the catholics are hierarchichally organized it's the pope
Except when you're dealing with sedevacantists (who believe there isn't a legitimate pope any more) or groups such as the SSPX (who believe he is legitimate but that what he says doesn't count here nor there) or even such groups such as the Palmarians who have a pope of their own (sort of modern version of the anti-pope, only that he is mostly ignored outside his immediate area of influence). But admittedly the sum of all these groups is still very small so overall your argument stands.

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(subject to the topic of course, theoretically the bible reigns supreme).
Correction, in the Catholic Church, tradition reigns supreme. The Bible is part of that tradition but not all of it and not above it. Other parts of tradition include ex-Cathedra teachings of popes. The whole point of the traditionalists' squabble over Vatican II was whether or not the Pope had the right to change this tradition, ie, the right to overrule earlier teachings rather than just adding to then as had been done so far.

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Which raises the question, who defines who qualifies for being a muslim? According the the Quran translation I've read it's the person (believer) himself.
Much the same as in the free churches of Christianity.
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Old 05.05.2015, 10:27
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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What do you mean? Kill the imbeciles?



As the catholics are hierarchichally organized it's the pope (subject to the topic of course, theoretically the bible reigns supreme). Which raises the question, who defines who qualifies for being a muslim? According the the Quran translation I've read it's the person (believer) himself.
About "According the the Quran translation I've read it's the person (believer) himself." Basically that is the issue with these Nut jobs who claim to be acting in support of their religion because there is no organisation or structure to formally reject their claims.
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  #298  
Old 05.05.2015, 11:39
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Ohio, 45 years ago yesterday.

Tom
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  #299  
Old 10.05.2015, 09:44
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

A shoot out somewhere in canton Argau ( didn't catch the name of the place). Several shots fired and some fatalities. Police are due to release a statement this afternoon.
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Old 10.05.2015, 09:52
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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A shoot out somewhere in canton Argau ( didn't catch the name of the place). Several shots fired and some fatalities. Police are due to release a statement this afternoon.
Würenlingen, Aargau.
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