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  #681  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I'm guessing, not the same source as the one you used:
Forget the source, think about the logic. it is what is confronting your position in this debate, and what holds up in the US.

If gun ownership decreases crimes, it implies the inverse. Restricting gun ownership can potentially increase it. There is logic there, not the author's moustache, alright?

On the topic of school shootings, some schools have beefed up security. They haven't encountered any shootings since. That is a direct response to the issue, not a panacea approach that is politically tainted and is a non-starter.

Some people are genuinely interested in protecting children in school, and do so. Others just want to use such opportunities to milk political points elsewhere by whining and posturing as bleeding heart saints.
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  #682  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:20
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Forget the source, think about the logic. it is what is confronting your position in this debate, and what holds up in the US.

If gun ownership decreases crimes, it implies the inverse. Restricting gun ownership can potentially increase it. There is logic there, not the author's moustache, alright?
It's your logic that's faulty here. You're assuming that there is evidence that gun ownership decreases crime. Can you show us any that hasn't been scientifically refuted?

Also, I don't think it's wise to mock someone's assertion that gun control reduces gun deaths when you can't justify your own unattributed assertions to the contrary.

And, by:
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On the topic of school shootings, some schools have beefed up security. They haven't encountered any shootings since.
... do you mean to say that arming personnel in schools that have experienced gun crime has prevented attacks there? What do you think the odds of two gun massacres at one school would be? "Lightning doesn't strike twice."
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  #683  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:23
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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It's your logic that's faulty here. You're assuming that there is evidence that gun ownership decreases crime. Can you show us any that hasn't been scientifically refuted?

Also, I don't think it's wise to mock someone's assertion that gun control reduces gun deaths when you can't justify your own unattributed assertions to the contrary.
I just posted it....

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One study was by Professor John Lott, University of Chicago who published is paper "More Guns Equal Less Violent Crime":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime

The other was by Professor Gary Kleck, who published "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America":
http://www.amazon.com/Point-Blank-Gu.../dp/020230762X
They are academic criminologists. Kleck happens to be a liberal democrat. But I am not sure you are interested in valid points.
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  #684  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I just posted it....



They are academic criminologists. Kleck happens to be a liberal democrat. But I am not sure you are interested in valid points.
Read up the thread a bit and see comments on those two (yes, n=2 out of, what, thousands of studies on gun crime?) studies. You're in dreamland if you think all published papers are impartial.

By the way, I edited my last post to add another point -- not sure if you caught that as you were already replying to my original, unedited post.
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  #685  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:27
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

This one is interesting. There were 2.5 million incidents of Defensive Gun Use in 1988-1993:

http://www.guncite.com/kleck2.gif
http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html

It indicates privately owned guns are in fact used for good purposes.
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  #686  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:29
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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By the way, I edited my last post to add another point -- not sure if you caught that as you were already replying to my original, unedited post.
What point? Schools with security? I don't know which ones had prior shootings, do you? But I haven't heard of any where security was breached by a shooter.
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  #687  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:32
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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What point? Schools with security? I don't know which ones had prior shootings, do you? But I haven't heard of any where security was breached by a shooter.
Have you heard of any school that was attacked twice?
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  #688  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:34
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This one is interesting. There were 2.5 million incidents of Defensive Gun Use in 1988-1993:

http://www.guncite.com/kleck2.gif
http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html

It indicates privately owned guns are in fact used for good purposes.
This is the same discredited Kleck research you posted before. Haven't you found anything new?
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  #689  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:36
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I know of some urban schools that have had multiple shootings, but due to gang rivalries. Those have been curtailed through security. The point is that shooters do their shooters where there is an absence of guns. They are not likely to go where they know somebody has a gun.
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  #690  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This is the same discredited Kleck research you posted before. Haven't you found anything new?
He hasn't been discredited. He's actually well respected and renowned, and cited as source in debates that have led to relaxation of gun restrictions.
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  #691  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:39
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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What point? Schools with security? I don't know which ones had prior shootings, do you? But I haven't heard of any where security was breached by a shooter.
Look at it this way: You're a disseffected teenager. You spend your time out of school on forums populated by disseffected teenagers and playing 1st person shooters. You decide the only way you can demonstrate how emotionally low you are is take your mothers gun and ammunition (secured in a safe for which you have acquired the code). You can't quite decide whether to take the gun to your (secure: guards+r-ray machines) school and shoot some of your classmates OR head to the mall after the school and shoot some of your classmates?

You'll find reams and reams of statistics on both sides of the argument, but what can not be denied is that without guns you get few shootings - whether mass, violent or defensive.

A dubiously calculated 2.5m defensive shootings does in no way indicate that having a gun reduces gun crime.

Furthermore - the direction in which the US is going is that it is protecting the minority (gun owners) by forcing everyone to be subjected to greater security at work and school. Consider that this is the reverse of smoking and you are left wondering whether the tobacco industry should have employed the NRA to lobby for them
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  #692  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This one is interesting. There were 2.5 million incidents of Defensive Gun Use in 1988-1993:

http://www.guncite.com/kleck2.gif
http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html

It indicates privately owned guns are in fact used for good purposes.
The first link leads me to a 404 error page.

The second is a 12,547-word paper. To be completely honest, I'm not going to read that right now. But I will, at some point, to inform myself more fully on your viewpoint. My first question will be how the authors link "defensive use of guns" to saving lives -- it looks like it's through surveys (which necessarily are based on opinion), rather than hard facts.

I'm also concerned that this is not the most scientific of papers, with lines like:

Quote:
This is also too serious a matter to base conclusions on silly statistics comparing the number of lives taken with guns with the number of criminals killed by victims.
But I'll read it when I have the time to focus on it.
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  #693  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:47
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You'll find reams and reams of statistics on both sides of the argument, but what can not be denied is that without guns you get few shootings - whether mass, violent or defensive.

A dubiously calculated 2.5m defensive shootings does in no way indicate that having a gun reduces gun crime.

Furthermore - the direction in which the US is going is that it is protecting the minority (gun owners) by forcing everyone to be subjected to greater security at work and school. Consider that this is the reverse of smoking and you are left wondering whether the tobacco industry should have employed the NRA to lobby for them
Gun homocide rates dropped 49% since 1993, while rate of ownership increased.

The school shootings are simply spectacular and emotive, and one can say they are driven in large part by media coverage.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/...ublic-unaware/

Last edited by Phos; 12.10.2015 at 12:58.
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  #694  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:52
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Gun homocide rates dropped 49% since 1993, while rate of ownership increased.

The school shootings are simply spectacular and emotive, and one can say they are driven in large part by media coverage.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/...ublic-unaware/
Highly debated - there is much evidence that rate of household gun ownership has declined substantially since that time. And that number of guns per gun owning household has increased.

Furthermore if you google "reason for us murder rate dropping since 1993" brings up plenty of links not mentioning gun owenership at all.
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  #695  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Definitely? What is your source for that, or is that magical thinking? Or is it a "gut feel"?
first of all, the notion that access to guns leads to increased risk of gun violence is seriously a no-brainer, and anyone who suggests that increased access to firearms somehow results in less gun violence is a facking idjit. nevertheless, here is a link to a very brief summary of an in-depth analysis and review conducted by Harvard University:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fi...uns-and-death/

note something that is absolutely critical about the Harvard analysis - it was controlled for both poverty and urbanization. this is something that is utterly lacking in every single "study" that has been published by the NRA and other special interest groups.

and, fyi, I am a natural born US citizen. on my maternal grandfather's side I am even a son of the American Revolution. in other words, my interest in the gun issue has nothing to do with my hatred of my own country, and everything to do with my love of my own country.
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  #696  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Let me separate this post about school shootings:

There is a political agenda behind the media coverage, which actually hinders its cause. It becomes a non-starter issue.

I think there is a possibility of a middle ground, for those interested in end results, outside of political hogwash. I believe a majority of law-abiding gun owners are really only concerned with allowing "good guys" to own guns. I can buy into that. The conversation needs to move away from schemes to limit gun ownership to incentivise proper gun ownership. The Republicans are adverse to any combination of the words "gun" and "control" in a sentence, and the Democrats are more keen to make political gain than finding a rationalised solution, so it is stuck. They need to flip the conversation around to benefits of proper gun ownership.
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  #697  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:59
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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He hasn't been discredited. He's actually well respected and renowned, and cited as source in debates that have led to relaxation of gun restrictions.
His use of statistics very much has been.
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Old 12.10.2015, 13:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Gun homocide rates dropped 49% since 1993, while rate of ownership increased.
I have fixed this wrong statement for you before, as has dodgyken, but it is worth mentioning again:

1. homicide rates have dropped since 1993 only because 1993 was the absolute historical peak for US homicides due to the drug and gang violence epidemic that ran through our urban centers. at present, the homicide rate is at almost exactly its historical average.

2. the rate of gun ownership, calculated both as a % of Americans as well as a % of American households, is actually down significantly over the last 30 years (from just north of 50% to just south of 33%). there are more guns in circulation because the same people keep buying more guns, but the rates of ownership are steadily declining.
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  #699  
Old 12.10.2015, 13:02
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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They need to flip the conversation around to benefits of proper gun ownership.
Because nothing says "I'm a keen hunter" better than a Glock 17

(Which now allows you to counter with other tasks that would fall under "proper/responsible gun ownership")
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  #700  
Old 12.10.2015, 13:04
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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His use of statistics very much has been.
Discredited in whose mind? Anyone who already holds a position can discredit anything that doesn't uphold theirs. But as for law makers, he is very much an accredited source with bona fide credentials.
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