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  #761  
Old 14.10.2015, 14:36
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Maybe that's the problem -- the numbers are inflated by double-counting?
The U.K statistics, since 2002, counts victims and not incidents. If you rob two people at the same time becomes two crimes in the statistics. If you shot one in the course it is still two, one robbery one murder.
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ime-statistics
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  #762  
Old 14.10.2015, 14:44
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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UK violent crime includes a "slap" - 20% use a weopon (180) or which 5% is a gun.
Wasn't 1998 the year the U.K. introduced the anti-social behaviour order?
That's when things that were considered shenanigans and nuisances before suddenly became crimes.
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  #763  
Old 14.10.2015, 14:46
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Because, yay, guns:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/10/12...an-badly-hurt/


Some other papers report the gunman was egged on by the crowd; lovely people.
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  #764  
Old 14.10.2015, 15:07
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Looking at the US number, that includes homicide, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault. Seems to be a FBI definition

In UK terms, aggravated assault is roughly equivalent to GBH (as it used to be called).

The UK numbers include a multitude of lower offences that are simply not included in the US statistics. Matching the offences as best I can from the Home Office stats, I see something less than 24,000 UK violent crimes according to that definition. That's just 41 per 100,000, nearly 90% lower than the US number.




Edit - seems to me the crimeresearch stat says an awful lot more about the politics of crimeresearch than anything remotely useful about their stats
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Last edited by baboon; 14.10.2015 at 15:39.
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  #765  
Old 14.10.2015, 15:32
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The U.K statistics, since 2002, counts victims and not incidents. If you rob two people at the same time becomes two crimes in the statistics. If you shot one in the course it is still two, one robbery one murder.
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ime-statistics
(Actually, I was referring to the mis-use of the term "Britain", which already includes Wales.)
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  #766  
Old 14.10.2015, 15:34
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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(Actually, I was referring to the mis-use of the term "Britain" which unfortunately already includes Wales.)
Fixed that for you.
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  #767  
Old 14.10.2015, 15:35
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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But any interest in getting a good understanding and read of the reality of the issue, or would you rather have anything that doesn't support your view just go away?
Did you read any of the posts in this thread that follow your quote of the US vs "Britain & Wales" statistics? They explain why you need to be careful how you read such statistics. They also show much lower rates of serious gun crime in firearm-controlled Britain than in gun-totin' US.
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  #768  
Old 14.10.2015, 15:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Gun rights proponents are NOT interested in arming wackos that go on shooting sprees. Its a reason some of them cite for owning a gun.
The NRA has consistantly opposed absolutely anything aimed at stopping wackos being armed. Adds up to the same thing imo.
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  #769  
Old 14.10.2015, 16:03
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The NRA has consistantly opposed absolutely anything aimed at stopping wackos being armed. Adds up to the same thing imo.
You may be right, and likely because of how it was an affront to their platform. Both sides have their boogeymen. The boogeyman game can only go so far, and gets boring after a while.

Typical gun owners/NRA members in the US are really more interested in safety rather than wanton violence and chaos. My advice was to get over polarisation, identify common interests, and recognize it proceeding forward to make any political headway in the situation.


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Did you read any of the posts in this thread that follow your quote of the US vs "Britain & Wales" statistics? They explain why you need to be careful how you read such statistics. They also show much lower rates of serious gun crime in firearm-controlled Britain than in gun-totin' US.
I'm sure, for logical reason. Yet I would bet Britain has proportionately more murders by sharp or blunt objects than the US, if it could be proven.
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Old 14.10.2015, 16:09
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I would bet Britain has proportionately more murders by sharp or blunt objects than the US, if it could be proven.
You may be right. Heck, why use a knife or rock when there's a perfectly good gun to hand?
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  #771  
Old 14.10.2015, 16:28
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Any Scotsman in the house?

2003 Death rate per Million from Assault:

Male /Female
E 8.3 4.1
W 2.8 1.3
S 34.9 6.1
NI 27.6 6.9
UK 10.8 4.3

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Old 14.10.2015, 16:32
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The UK numbers include a multitude of lower offences that are simply not included in the US statistics. Matching the offences as best I can from the Home Office stats, I see something less than 24,000 UK violent crimes according to that definition. That's just 41 per 100,000, nearly 90% lower than the US number.
....
Edit - seems to me the crimeresearch stat says an awful lot more about the politics of crimeresearch than anything remotely useful about their stats
But a crime is a crime according to the laws of that land, not by any other. That is the measure you use, not how and what it is considered in other places. Attempting otherwise is really more about trying to fudge an undesirable reading.
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  #773  
Old 14.10.2015, 16:32
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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.... Yet I would bet Britain has proportionately more murders by sharp or blunt objects than the US, if it could be proven.
That's another bet you would loose. I just checked.
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Old 14.10.2015, 16:33
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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But a crime is a crime according to the laws of that land, not by any other. That is the measure you use, not how and what it is considered in other places. Attempting otherwise is really more about trying to fudge an undesirable reading.
You really haven't a clue about statistics, have you?


Edit. To try to clarify. The US number DOESN'T include ALL violent crime in the US. Just certain categories of it. I have attempted to match the same UK categories to the US numbers to have comperable figures. Of course that result doesn't fit your agenda, does it.
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Old 14.10.2015, 16:36
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Any Scotsman in the house?

2003 Death rate per Million from Assault:

Male /Female
E 8.3 4.1
W 2.8 1.3
S 34.9 6.1
NI 27.6 6.9
UK 10.8 4.3


In America, we all know about the Scotch-Irish penchant for fighting. Where do you think John Wayne is from? There was a recent book by a military general about this, and how it influenced US Foreign Policy.

If we were to send them all back, might our rate of violence drop, and we become peace loving?

Perhaps the US should ban the Scotch-Irish instead of guns.
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Old 14.10.2015, 16:42
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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That's another bet you would loose. I just checked.
This one might actually be interesting and applicable. Can you show that assaults and homocides by sharp and blunt objects DID NOT rise after the hand gun ban?
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Old 14.10.2015, 16:54
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You really haven't a clue about statistics, have you?

Edit. To try to clarify. The US number DOESN'T include ALL violent crime in the US. Just certain categories of it. I have attempted to match the same UK categories to the US numbers to have comperable figures. Of course that result doesn't fit your agenda, does it.
Just trying to help. So if you want to use the same set of data, it seems the same dynamics apply within the US itself. In the case of Chicago, tightening restrictions on gun ownership was also accompanied by a rise in crime. I think it is like the UK story. Perhaps correlating the data according to a closer set of data points might prove or disprove the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of gun control.
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Old 14.10.2015, 16:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This one might actually be interesting and applicable. Can you show that assaults and homocides by sharp and blunt objects DID NOT rise after the hand gun ban?
That's not what you said before.


US murder rate from sharp and blunt objects is a little over 9 per 100,000. UK (England/Wales) murder rate from everything except guns is below 9.


Plus the "hand gun ban" was more a closing of the last few loopholes. They were pretty much banned before 1997 for most practical purposes anyway.
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Old 14.10.2015, 16:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Just trying to help. So if you want to use the same set of data, it seems the same dynamics apply within the US itself. In the case of Chicago, tightening restrictions on gun ownership was also accompanied by a rise in crime. I think it is like the UK story. Perhaps correlating the data according to a closer set of data points might prove or disprove the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of gun control.
....except UK crime rates overall have been declining over the last couple of decades. Case disproven by your measures.


Plus see my previous point of the reality of gun control in the UK pre-1997. You really can't read anything into 1997 as any sort of watershed.
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Old 14.10.2015, 17:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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....except UK crime rates overall have been declining over the last couple of decades. Case disproven by your measures.


Plus see my previous point of the reality of gun control in the UK pre-1997. You really can't read anything into 1997 as any sort of watershed.
How do you make a statement like that when the definitions for crimes are changing, and political pressures for reporting crimes alter the figures?
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