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  #1461  
Old 12.06.2016, 23:28
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Re: 50 people dead in gay club shooting in Florida

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You mean "be more tolerant". "Fellow man" excludes "fellow woman".
a play on words, in my case I meant human beings
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  #1462  
Old 12.06.2016, 23:34
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Scary indeed, although I'm guessing your sons and their wives and children don't frequent gay clubs in Orlando.
My cousins certainy have friends who do.

Tom
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  #1463  
Old 12.06.2016, 23:39
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Re: 50 people dead in gay club shooting in Florida

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Yep, but "follow human" excludes "fellow huwoman".
Then it should be "hueman", so that all people on the entire color spectrum (gender and skin) are included.
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  #1464  
Old 12.06.2016, 23:39
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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At 2:00 a.m.? Possible, I suppose, but improbable.

I'm guessing you've never been in a gay nightclub.
Are trying to be funny or what?
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  #1465  
Old 13.06.2016, 00:16
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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My cousins certainy have friends who do.

Tom
Are your cousins' friends related to cannot? No? Then your post is irrelevant, isn't it?
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  #1466  
Old 13.06.2016, 00:17
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Are trying to be funny or what?
Are you hard of thinking? Rhetorical question, no need to answer.
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  #1467  
Old 13.06.2016, 00:45
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I've heard tell that people's daughters and their nieces can actually be gay. As for the woman accompanying he brother and his boyfriend, I'm guessing -- clutching at straws -- that her brother is gay, and that's why they were at this particular club.
I must admit to being shocked at your posts on this matter. Must be a cultural difference going on.

I'm a 51yr old straight woman. I couldn't begin to count how many happy nights I've spent in gay bars and clubs over the last 30yrs. It's well into three figures, if not 4 figures. I worked in Manchester city centre from 40-48yrs old, in the travel industry, which attracts a disproportionately high percentage of LGBT employees. Our office evacuation point was New Union Bar in Manchester's gay village, an area of the city I'd visited many times in my 30's. Friday nights always began with a few drinks in the village before the train home, but sometimes turned into getting the last bus home at 2am. Office parties, airline organised pub crawls, hundreds of colleague's birthdays...all happened in the village.

This attack is an abomination. Another soft target. Another intelligence slip up. If this attack had been on Manchester's gay scene, I and dozens of my friends, would most likely be grieving now.
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Old 13.06.2016, 00:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Make that 50 dead, 53 injured so far. The worst shooting rampage in US history. And the Republicans want a staunch pro-gun advocate as their nominee for the White House. I bet Trump will say, "Oh, but it was terrorism, that's different". Yeah, terrorism committed by a US national, in America, with guns that are legally available to just about anyone.

Theres only one solution to prevent these gun deaths, but nobody brave or sensible enough in the US to take the decision.
Gun ban?? Yep because only law abiding people have guns. A gun ban won't do anything.
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  #1469  
Old 13.06.2016, 01:17
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I must admit to being shocked at your posts on this matter. Must be a cultural difference going on.

I'm a 51yr old straight woman. I couldn't begin to count how many happy nights I've spent in gay bars and clubs over the last 30yrs. It's well into three figures, if not 4 figures. I worked in Manchester city centre from 40-48yrs old, in the travel industry, which attracts a disproportionately high percentage of LGBT employees. Our office evacuation point was New Union Bar in Manchester's gay village, an area of the city I'd visited many times in my 30's. Friday nights always began with a few drinks in the village before the train home, but sometimes turned into getting the last bus home at 2am. Office parties, airline organised pub crawls, hundreds of colleague's birthdays...all happened in the village.

This attack is an abomination. Another soft target. Another intelligence slip up. If this attack had been on Manchester's gay scene, I and dozens of my friends, would most likely be grieving now.
To cut my response very short, you (and a few others) have completely misunderstood my posts. The point is not that it's unthinkable that straight people would be in a gay club, but that it's highly unlikely that cannut's sons and their families — specifically — would have been in Pulse. I made no comment or implication about who goes to gay bars or whether they should, apart from that. I posted because all too often people react hyperbolically to shocking news; for example, my brother lives in a town that was hit hard by floods a couple of years ago, but knowing that his house was high up from the river, I didn't find the need to call him in a panic. My concern for his safety was tempered by knowledge of that "defining parameter".

I'm a straight man but also have many friends who are gay (that's Sydney for you). I've also spent many evenings with them in gay clubs. I'd be concerned about them if something similar happened in Sydney. But the likelihood of them being affected by, say, the recent shark and crocodile attacks in Australia is very low because they wouldn't have been at the beach in the affected areas in late autumn, just as the likelihood that cannut's family was affected by the Pulse abomination was also very low, as they almost certainly wouldn't have been in that club at that time.

My posts in no way suggested that I wasn't horrified by the attack, nor that it wasn't possible that friends of cannut's family (or even families or friends of EF members) may have been in the club. I certainly hope that wasn't the case. But please read my posts again and note that I was referring specifically and exclusively to cannut's sons and grandchildren.
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  #1470  
Old 13.06.2016, 01:23
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Gun ban?? Yep because only law abiding people have guns. A gun ban won't do anything.
Sigh. Here we go again. A strict gun ban has worked exceptionally well to reduce gun deaths significantly in Australia, and other examples also exist elsewhere. Anyone who argues that reducing the number of guns wouldn't result in a reduction of shooting incidents (especially of innocent members of the public) is simply ignoring facts and spreading falsehoods.
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  #1471  
Old 13.06.2016, 01:39
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

The problem is that the US has a lot of guns.
And a lot of people feel very strongly about them.

Unless a large portion of people really want to ban guns and give up their own (from what I was able to glean from wikipedia, it seems this is what happened in Australia).
I don't see that happening in the US for a couple of decades.

In any case, it's entirely in the hands of the American voter.
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  #1472  
Old 13.06.2016, 01:40
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to explain yourself.

A few of my friends from Manchester are in Tel Aviv for Pride this week.

Donald Trump and Co

There was an attack a few days ago only two blocks from their rental apartment. The Muslim friend was heartbroken saying he wished people would put their faith aside and see people as human beings first and foremost.

Then this....
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  #1473  
Old 13.06.2016, 08:04
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The problem is that the US has a lot of guns.
And a lot of people feel very strongly about them.

Unless a large portion of people really want to ban guns and give up their own (from what I was able to glean from wikipedia, it seems this is what happened in Australia).
I don't see that happening in the US for a couple of decades.

In any case, it's entirely in the hands of the American voter.
Exactly, the problem is that Americans have too many guns.

The implementation of the gun ban in Australia wasn't quite as you describe it. Following a similar mass shooting, the then-Prime Minister forced through legislation which allowed for buy-back of guns followed by an amnesty period during which guns could be surrendered without penalty.
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  #1474  
Old 13.06.2016, 08:30
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Gun ban?? Yep because only law abiding people have guns. A gun ban won't do anything.

Maybe we could just start with restricting sales and ensuring everybody that buys them has a licence, like with cars. Also, some sort of check that the buyer isn't on a terrorist watchlist, like with getting on a plane. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
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  #1475  
Old 13.06.2016, 08:51
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Two days after the attack. Same arguments rolled out, sane people calling for stricter gun controls, many NRA fans saying it wouldn't have happened if more people were carrying firearms, so let's stock up.

Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

I truly wonder why the US spends so much time attempting to police the world with military deployments, military equipment costing many trillions just to try and create a so called peace, when their own domestic society that they're trying to impose on others is one of violence and lawlessness?
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  #1476  
Old 13.06.2016, 08:57
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Gun ban?? Yep because only law abiding people have guns. A gun ban won't do anything.

rob1: What about the other side of the coin? If the argument against a gun ban is that "the good guys won't be able to defend themselves" then where were these armed good guys in Orlando?


As far as I can tell the armed good guys (other than the post facto intervention of the security forces) aren't having any restraining effect.


Have a look at http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orl...hooter-n590496


Amongst other things consider the following train of thought:


1) the guy worked in Security and had access to guns.
2) the guy was apparently bonkers.
3) Nobody apparently felt that the above two points were a dangerous combination.


an intervention at any one of the above three points might well have made a difference.
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Last edited by JagWaugh; 13.06.2016 at 08:58. Reason: missed a word
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  #1477  
Old 13.06.2016, 09:25
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

his ex wife gives her perspective.

Orlando massacre: Omar Mateen's ex-wife says he beat her and held her hostage

"“Then after a few months he started abusing me physically, very often, and not allowing me to speak to my family, and keeping me hostage from them,” she said.

She said her family arrived to rescue her from Mateen “and had to pull me out of his arms”.

“He would often get into fights and arguments with his parents but because I was the only one in his life most of the violence was towards me at that time,” Yusifuy said.

She saw in him signs of “emotional instability, sickness … He was mentally unstable and mentally ill [and] obviously disturbed, deeply, and traumatised”.

The couple were divorced by 2011. “I have cut him off, I’ve blocked everything and my family warned him that if he tried to contact me, they would go to the authorities,” she said.
"

even this normal person had a better response to this tragedy than trump!

'Yusifiy said her parents had woken her on Sunday morning with news of the massacre. “The first thing that they told me was that your ex-husband was involved in a mass shooting,” she said.
“I was devastated, shocked [and] so deeply hurt for the people who lost their loved ones, and the families who are now suffering.”'
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Old 13.06.2016, 09:25
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Objectively, it's the guns. And particularly, assault rifles. Please explain to me why any person needs an assault rifle. To rip bambi to shreds? It's bullshit.

But in the US, it's not just the guns, it's the gun lobby. The NRA wields a lot of power, owns politicians and is there pretty much to increase gun manufacturer business. Capiltalism at its best. Ugh.

Last edited by edot; 13.06.2016 at 10:44.
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  #1479  
Old 13.06.2016, 09:39
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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To cut my response very short, you (and a few others) have completely misunderstood my posts. The point is not that it's unthinkable that straight people would be in a gay club, but that it's highly unlikely that cannut's sons and their families — specifically — would have been in Pulse. I made no comment or implication about who goes to gay bars or whether they should, apart from that. I posted because all too often people react hyperbolically to shocking news; for example, my brother lives in a town that was hit hard by floods a couple of years ago, but knowing that his house was high up from the river, I didn't find the need to call him in a panic. My concern for his safety was tempered by knowledge of that "defining parameter".

I'm a straight man but also have many friends who are gay (that's Sydney for you). I've also spent many evenings with them in gay clubs. I'd be concerned about them if something similar happened in Sydney. But the likelihood of them being affected by, say, the recent shark and crocodile attacks in Australia is very low because they wouldn't have been at the beach in the affected areas in late autumn, just as the likelihood that cannut's family was affected by the Pulse abomination was also very low, as they almost certainly wouldn't have been in that club at that time.

My posts in no way suggested that I wasn't horrified by the attack, nor that it wasn't possible that friends of cannut's family (or even families or friends of EF members) may have been in the club. I certainly hope that wasn't the case. But please read my posts again and note that I was referring specifically and exclusively to cannut's sons and grandchildren.

This is a highly nuanced rebuttal to explain a very specific point. Pls allow me to add a few others which have not been mentioned:

1). The shooting is being referred to as the largest terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11

2). Obama is also tying this to gun control policy ( perhaps to deflect a failed anti-terrorist policy)

3). This is exactly the incident which will deflect the spotlight from Trump and his recent asshatery. It will help Trump and hurt Hillary.

4). The father of the shooter appears to be a real loon. The shooter himself was investigated twice by the FBI after making radical statements. Again, this will help Trump and his argument about stricter immigration controls and reinforce the failed antiterrorist policy in number 2 above.

5). The US press, in their love to provide rankings, is comparing this is against mass shootings versus against acts of terrorism. No mention of 911, Timothy McVeigh or the earlier World Trade Center bombing.

6). Does a lone terrorist somehow not register strongly as an act of terrorism? The San Bernadino shootings were a couple and considered Islamic terrorism, while the fort Hood shooter was classified workplace violence. Timothy McVeigh had an accomplice and was considered domestic terrorism.

7. This incident has as much to do about gun control as the Paris shootings. There are enough examples to fuel gun control debate. I don't think this is one of them.
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Old 13.06.2016, 09:42
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I truly wonder why the US spends so much time attempting to police the world with military deployments, military equipment costing many trillions just to try and create a so called peace, when their own domestic society that they're trying to impose on others is one of violence and lawlessness?
They only spend 3/8ths of the total global spend on "defence" - surely the greatest country in the world should do better than that??

@22yards your posts didn't read well - almost intimating that "who cares - they're gays"

The way I look at it is simple - we (Europeans + US liberals) are not going to make Americans change their views on guns, so why bother? I read somewhere that gun ownership is like the anti-herd immunity. So that although gun owners believe they are offering greater protection to those in the herd by having guns - in fact they are doing the opposite.
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Last edited by dodgyken; 13.06.2016 at 10:23.
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