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Old 15.11.2012, 12:36
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Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

This appeared in the papers yesterday.

Makes me sick. How can a 21st century hospital still be governed by medieval religious dogma?
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Old 15.11.2012, 12:49
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

Something very close to this happened to a friend of mine. They had the choice to save the baby or the mother, they chose to save the mother. Afterwards, one of the obstetricians actually told her (to her face) two things:
a) he could have saved her baby, had he been there faster and the attending surgeon had chosen to prioritise the c-section over stopping the mother's bleeding.
b) if she'd been in a catholic hospital, she would probably be dead and her baby living.
In my friend's case it was a decision between prioritising to save the mother by stopping bleeding, attending to a collapsed lung, putting her on life support and giving many many units of blood transfusion, or doing a c-section to save the baby. And there were definitely no guarantees of a positive outcome on either side.

In this case, the baby was 32 weeks, so considered to be well within the limits of 'viable life' and they could have theoretically had a newborn intensive care unit set up in time.

This case (the one you linked) is far less 'gray' as it would be very easy to say that the foetus had no possibility of survival..if the mother dies, the foetus dies too...and I get the impression the family would doubly pained if they don't even have the same belief system as the doctors/hospital/political system...
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Old 15.11.2012, 12:51
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

Judging by the article a grave missjustice was done.

I just hope the inquiry uncovers the true facts. Doctors have a reputation for circling the wagons when mistakes are committed.

But don't get me wrong. I have a lot of respect for Doctors.



Doctors have done a lot of good all around the world...
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Old 15.11.2012, 12:51
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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This appeared in the papers yesterday.

Makes me sick. How can a 21st century hospital still be governed by medieval religious dogma?
That is bloody awful!! The doctors or no worse than murderers. No matter what your relgious beliefs are it is a human right to be treated as you wish
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Old 15.11.2012, 12:54
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

The doctors (and, obviously, that poor woman) were let down by the lack of clarity in Irish abortion law.

The government has promised to look into the matter. Let's hope they sort it out once and for all.
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Old 15.11.2012, 12:59
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

This is really sad

I think an important aspect of this story has to be the fact that the woman and her family were immigrants. They probably didn't know how to react at first to the "catholic country" comment as they never expected it. While they considered their options the doctors must've walked all over them and it was too late.

I hope justice is served, although her family will never get her back.
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Old 15.11.2012, 13:07
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

Such obstetric complications are not unheard of, so I can't believe there has been no precedent in Ireland.
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Old 15.11.2012, 16:18
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

Clearly this case is tragic.

The legal situation in Ireland hasn't been fully addressed by successive governments since the X Case in the 90s and subsequent referenda.

The Catholic alleged quote was probably not meant religiously, rather culturally, as abortion is even severely restricted in Northern Ireland in the UK which is predominately not Catholic. (Although this case would have been handled differently under existing regulations).

Clearly Ireland has had other cases but they don't get the same traction as when an immigrant is involved. The normal coverage is on the Dublin Maternity hospitals that give birth to more "non-nationals" than nationals.

The question now is, will a west Ireland originating government be bold. A referendum on the government requesting additional powers to intervene on behalf of children at risk at the weekend barely passed with a low turnout.

Imagine the "priority" unborn children have.....

I hope this case is the catalyst to real action this time, in this case Ireland has something in common with CH in reluctantly acknowledging how immigration is changing society. (Although only requiring 5-8 years residence to become naturalised versus 12 here).

Let's wait for the investigations before casting judgement. Clearly as a minimum the current guidelines and implementation of the Supreme Court judgements are inadequate.

I'm curious what my more recently immigrated fellow Irish citizens think.
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Old 15.11.2012, 16:21
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

They treat JFK as a saint in the local Catholic church but won't allow an abortion. Oh, the irony of it all.
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Old 15.11.2012, 16:45
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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... No matter what your relgious beliefs are it is a human right to be treated as you wish
Don't be daft - in any country there will be many "treatments" that are illegal.

In this case, the law is clearly an ass.

In situations where it is one or the other, the decision is up to the mother. In situations where there is no chance for the baby - then save the mother's life. The prolifers I know are in agreement with this.
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Old 15.11.2012, 17:56
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

I'm surprised they didn't clean their hands of the issue by saying she needed specialist care the UK and airlift to a hospital across the Irish Sea...
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Old 15.11.2012, 18:42
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion



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This appeared in the papers yesterday.

Makes me sick. How can a 21st century hospital still be governed by medieval religious dogma?
Actually, I think it was racism. The woman was Asian. I'm willing to bet that had she been white, that comment would never have been made.
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Old 15.11.2012, 18:49
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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Clearly this case is tragic.

The legal situation in Ireland hasn't been fully addressed by successive governments since the X Case in the 90s and subsequent referenda.

The Catholic alleged quote was probably not meant religiously, rather culturally, as abortion is even severely restricted in Northern Ireland in the UK which is predominately not Catholic. (Although this case would have been handled differently under existing regulations).

Clearly Ireland has had other cases but they don't get the same traction as when an immigrant is involved. The normal coverage is on the Dublin Maternity hospitals that give birth to more "non-nationals" than nationals.

The question now is, will a west Ireland originating government be bold. A referendum on the government requesting additional powers to intervene on behalf of children at risk at the weekend barely passed with a low turnout.

Imagine the "priority" unborn children have.....

I hope this case is the catalyst to real action this time, in this case Ireland has something in common with CH in reluctantly acknowledging how immigration is changing society. (Although only requiring 5-8 years residence to become naturalised versus 12 here).

Let's wait for the investigations before casting judgement. Clearly as a minimum the current guidelines and implementation of the Supreme Court judgements are inadequate.

I'm curious what my more recently immigrated fellow Irish citizens think.
Hello, fellow Wallisellener I am back living in Dublin most of the year.

Interestingly, I thought the same re immigration and Ireland/West of Ireland. It is astonishing that she and her husband were informed by a Doctor that Ireland is a catholic country as if that, incredibly, had anything at all to do with the management of the correct medical procedures needed to deal with the miscarriage to save her life. I could be completely wrong, and totally off here, but I do get the feeling this was less likely to have happened in Dublin.. can't imagine a Doctor trotting out a lecture re Catholic Ireland to an immigrant anywhere other than in the West or South (my childhood back yard)

Taoiseach Enda Kenny, the Mayo man, has said there will be no abortion in Ireland. His party, Fine Gael, are adamantly opposed to it.. so wonder what the fall out from this will be. I have been watching/listening to discussions in the aftermath of this tragedy, and I am quite surprised at how many politicians, pro-life representatives and doctors who are tip-toeing around this issue.
The problem here being that Doctors need explicit legislation to guide them when they find them selves on unsure ground but most seem to have enough professional cop-on and care for their patient to know when to do the right thing - otherwise this would be happening a lot more, right?. Explicit legislation will also prevent doctors making non-medical idiotic subjective religious decisions (remains to be seen if this indeed was the case here) when it comes to saving the life of a Mother.

Ireland needs clear unambiguous and constructive legislation in so many areas, but this country, with its smoke and mirrors, has always had a very poor track record with transparency and accountablility in politics and government.

The child referendum last weekend was so badly worded/ presented to the public that few knew what it meant, hence the poor turn out.

Sounds familiar, eh? Abortion referendum, anyone?
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Old 15.11.2012, 20:58
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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This is really sad

I think an important aspect of this story has to be the fact that the woman and her family were immigrants. They probably didn't know how to react at first to the "catholic country" comment as they never expected it. While they considered their options the doctors must've walked all over them and it was too late.

I hope justice is served, although her family will never get her back.
She was also a dentist, I.e. extremely skilled and professional I doubt very much such a person would be unaware or unable to comprehend the doctors explanation.
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Old 15.11.2012, 23:50
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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The doctors (and, obviously, that poor woman) were let down by the lack of clarity in Irish abortion law.

The government has promised to look into the matter. Let's hope they sort it out once and for all.
I don't see the lack of clarity as the issue... It seems to me that the life of a living, breathing person, with a current life is way more important than any potential life. And if it weren't for religious dogma, this would never be an issue.

BTW, she was a 31 year old woman that had recently re-qualified in Ireland as a dentist and her husband was an engineer. The ignorant immigrant explanation just doesn't fly. As a medical professional, this woman knew she was going to go into septic shock, she wasn't stupid... Maybe the doctors were trying to make a point-- I can't imagine why it's still so shitty to be female in this supposed world of reason.
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Old 16.11.2012, 06:53
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

According to this "There were 7 deaths after legal abortions during 1982-84 and 4 during 1985-87".

It could be argued that these 11 women would be alive if they hadn't had an abortion. So two statements:
  1. "UK abortion law led to 11 deaths in the 80s, therefore UK abortion law should have been changed"
  2. "Irish abortion law led to a death in 2013, therefore Irish abortion law should be changed".

If the 2 is valid, persumably 1 is. And if 1 isn't valid then neither is 2. I can't see how 1 could be false and 2 could be true (except if "abortion must be legal" is taken as an axiom) - but perhaps someone else can see it.

In this case, it is claimed that if she'd had an abortion, then she would not have died. Do we know this for sure? The media isn't well known for providing accurate information. Perhaps it was other medical mismanagement that was the real cause. Perhaps with proper care, both mother and baby would be expected to live. Maybe we'll get to know after the investigation - unless there's the usual hospital cover ups.
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Old 16.11.2012, 08:16
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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This appeared in the papers yesterday.

Makes me sick. How can a 21st century hospital still be governed by medieval religious dogma?
I smell gross negligence, if tests prove there is an ungoing miscarriage what where they thinking? This is a Catholic country my a$$
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Old 16.11.2012, 08:18
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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According to this "There were 7 deaths after legal abortions during 1982-84 and 4 during 1985-87".


It could be argued that these 11 women would be alive if they hadn't had an abortion. So two statements:
  1. "UK abortion law led to 11 deaths in the 80s, therefore UK abortion law should have been changed"
  2. "Irish abortion law led to a death in 2013, therefore Irish abortion law should be changed".
If the 2 is valid, persumably 1 is. And if 1 isn't valid then neither is 2. I can't see how 1 could be false and 2 could be true (except if "abortion must be legal" is taken as an axiom) - but perhaps someone else can see it.

In this case, it is claimed that if she'd had an abortion, then she would not have died. Do we know this for sure? The media isn't well known for providing accurate information. Perhaps it was other medical mismanagement that was the real cause. Perhaps with proper care, both mother and baby would be expected to live. Maybe we'll get to know after the investigation - unless there's the usual hospital cover ups.
These assumptions are not valid, simply because you do not know the number of exposed people (to an abortion) or whether the abortion was legal or not...
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Old 16.11.2012, 08:46
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

Ireland is NOT a catholic country for christ's sake!




Actually, I hope that with time, education will reach enough people so as to make religious institutions (weapons of mass manipulation) extinct all over.

I do believe in freedom of religion in the sense that everyone is free to believe without institutions imposing THEIR beliefs.
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Old 16.11.2012, 08:59
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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Ireland is NOT a catholic country for christ's sake!
I think they were just quoting what the medical personnel gave as an excuse
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