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Old 16.11.2012, 10:50
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US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

It has been a bit interesting to see the secession movement taking hold in a number of states after the recent elections. While legally this is likely impossible, it got me thinking about possibilies relating to the major issues of americans abroads, ie. taxation, FATCA, etc.. to see if this could also be an avenue. I believe many states now have a petition going at the White House website, We the People... See all petitions here, on a wide issue of topics. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions

So basically, if someone creates a petition and gets enough signatures, the White House will respond. A lot of interest these days on these sucession petitions, at least one that has passed the threshold for response. So wondering if ACA, Isaac Brock Society, or others are considering doing this for american abroad issues? Would yet be another way to get the message home and raise awareness, even if the response would likely be disappointing. Any thoughts?
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Old 17.11.2012, 14:29
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

You're correct, secession is impossible in every sense.

By secession for Americans abroad, do you simply mean forgetting about your
U.S. tax obligation and ignoring the IRS?

Be warned, if your tax bill is high enough and you're deliberately evading taxes, you should never return to the United States. They will come after you. The IRS is not pleasant.

Also remember, that little computer sitting next to the CBP officer who asks you where you have been, where you're going, etc. is connected to a network called the Treasury Enforcement Communications System.
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Old 17.11.2012, 15:05
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

I think runningdeers point is not that we don`t pay our taxes or do anything illegal but if a petition can be raised with 100,000 signatures at least it requires a response, which means they have to read it, which means at least it got read and is noted.

Highlighting the unfairness of US income tax laws for non residence and how Fatca is negatively affecting US citizens abroad.

As far as those looking to secede, poor losers. There was a vote they lost.
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Old 17.11.2012, 19:01
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

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I think runningdeers point is not that we don`t pay our taxes or do anything illegal but if a petition can be raised with 100,000 signatures at least it requires a response, which means they have to read it, which means at least it got read and is noted.

Highlighting the unfairness of US income tax laws for non residence and how Fatca is negatively affecting US citizens abroad.

As far as those looking to secede, poor losers. There was a vote they lost.
I understand. However, I also understand that there are lot of people who are confused about FATCA and they often put it on the back burner since their residence is abroad. I don't want to see people get themselves in hot water with the IRS, because if the tax liability is high enough, they will come after you when the opportunity presents itself. There are things that an attorney can do to mitigate a person's liability to the IRS. If anyone has FATCA problems or owes back taxes to the IRS, feel free to send me a private message and I'll give you my secure email address/contact information. All emails will be kept within the attorney-client privilege. If you like I can reccomend a list of attorneys competent in the practice of negotiating with the IRS.

A petition is a good idea that will get a response from the White House if the requisite number of signatures is obtained, but it unlikely to have any effect on tax policy. If someone is in hot water right now, they need professional legal help.
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Old 17.11.2012, 19:51
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

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It has been a bit interesting to see the secession movement taking hold in a number of states after the recent elections. While legally this is likely impossible, it got me thinking about possibilies relating to the major issues of americans abroads, ie. taxation, FATCA, etc.. to see if this could also be an avenue. I believe many states now have a petition going at the White House website, We the People... See all petitions here, on a wide issue of topics. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions

So basically, if someone creates a petition and gets enough signatures, the White House will respond. A lot of interest these days on these sucession petitions, at least one that has passed the threshold for response. So wondering if ACA, Isaac Brock Society, or others are considering doing this for american abroad issues? Would yet be another way to get the message home and raise awareness, even if the response would likely be disappointing. Any thoughts?
There's a thread on the IsaacBrockSociety website about it, but I haven't read it yet.
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Old 17.11.2012, 21:14
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

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It has been a bit interesting to see the secession movement taking hold in a number of states after the recent elections. While legally this is likely impossible, it got me thinking about possibilies relating to the major issues of americans abroads, ie. taxation, FATCA, etc.. to see if this could also be an avenue. I believe many states now have a petition going at the White House website, We the People... See all petitions here, on a wide issue of topics. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions

So basically, if someone creates a petition and gets enough signatures, the White House will respond. A lot of interest these days on these sucession petitions, at least one that has passed the threshold for response. So wondering if ACA, Isaac Brock Society, or others are considering doing this for american abroad issues? Would yet be another way to get the message home and raise awareness, even if the response would likely be disappointing. Any thoughts?
A) which states were to seceed ?
B) were they to unite in whatever framwork ?
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Old 17.11.2012, 21:54
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

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A) which states were to seceed ?
B) were they to unite in whatever framwork ?
Some Texans drafted a petition requesting permission to secede. This was then joined by other crazies in other states attempting to elicit a response from the President. The whole thing is about harassing the President to answer their whining cries and has no basis in law or reality.

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Old 17.11.2012, 22:15
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

I believe that the ranks of secession advocates are swollen mostly with disgruntled Republicans who blame Obama for all America's ills (and thought Bush did no harm). Most lack objective critical analysis skills, and haven't even given much thought to the logistics involved, or the various possible scenarios through which secession could take place — they just want out, and if left to themselves might well replicate the same top-heavy, bureaucratic, two-party poor-excuse-for-a-government in their independent states, just on a smaller scale.

There has been a thriving (but small) secession movement in various US states for a long time, peopled in part by folks who have studied and debated the historical, legal, and logistical implications. I don't expect them to be especially impressed by the current flash-in-the-pan surge in numbers, which, as said above, is mostly made up of folks who think Republican/'conservative' statism is different and somehow better than Democrat/'liberal' statism.

In short, despite all the noise, don't look for any actual US secessions in the near future, though the movement is hardly in decline.
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Old 17.11.2012, 22:34
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

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Some Texans drafted a petition requesting permission to secede. This was then joined by other crazies in other states attempting to elicit a response from the President. The whole thing is about harassing the President to answer their whining cries and has no basis in law or reality.
what people overlook is that movements such as secession, though invariably unsuccessful, do in fact impact the political landscape over the course of time. and, although obviously the secession movement will not be successful, talking about it in terms of "legal" or "illegal" is meaningless - the whole point of secession is to move outside the laws of another sovereign authority.

Texaner is right, there has been an undercurrent of secessionist thinking in various states for several years. it is simply getting more airtime now.
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Old 17.11.2012, 23:37
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

The states applying to secede are the wet dream of most coastal folks wishing they could lose the flyover states and the southern states since most of them are a net loss in terms of federal spending. I wish new england would band together to form its own country or be annexed by Canada. I'm pretty tired of the tea party types who whine far too much. Let 'em go, I say.
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Old 17.11.2012, 23:55
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

Eh, never mind. Expecting a legitimate response from a troll like him who has no experience defending tax clients is an exercise in futility.

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Old 17.11.2012, 23:59
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

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what people overlook is that movements such as secession, though invariably unsuccessful, do in fact impact the political landscape over the course of time. and, although obviously the secession movement will not be successful, talking about it in terms of "legal" or "illegal" is meaningless - the whole point of secession is to move outside the laws of another sovereign authority.

Texaner is right, there has been an undercurrent of secessionist thinking in various states for several years. it is simply getting more airtime now.
Secessionist thinking has been a minority political opinion in the United States since reconstruction.

The people who wrote this petition know well that they cannot secede from the United States. There is no problem with discussing the legality of secession in this context because 1.) The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land and does not permit secession (the Confederacy was never legally recognized as an independent state) 2.) the amount of Federal property in these southern states and 3.) federal funding to these states.
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Old 18.11.2012, 00:05
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

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The states applying to secede are the wet dream of most coastal folks wishing they could lose the flyover states and the southern states since most of them are a net loss in terms of federal spending. I wish new england would band together to form its own country or be annexed by Canada. I'm pretty tired of the tea party types who whine far too much. Let 'em go, I say.
A lot of people signing the petition are doing so because the would love to see those states thrown out of the Republic. Michael Moore spoke about signing the petition multiple times under assumed names. Red states receive far more in federal funding than they pay in taxes.

But let's face it, the Internet brings a lot of crazies together who otherwise never meet to see the light of day. And those states have a lot of good people in there of every political persuasion who would never entertain the notion of secession. This gets a lot more serious discussion outside of the US than inside the US where it is blatantly obvious that this is a non starter,
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Old 18.11.2012, 07:56
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

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...The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land and does not permit secession...
The Constitution says nothing about secession. It cannot be said to 'not permit' secession any more than it can be said to 'not permit' buying a horse. Hard as it may be for a self-described lawyer to grasp, the freedom to withdraw from a wholly voluntary political arrangement is not somehow ruled out by the fact that the option isn't explicitly mentioned in a general constitution.

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...the amount of Federal property in these southern states...
The states of the 1861 Confederacy offered to compensate the Union for any Union-held property within their borders. Any state truly intent on seceding could do the same thing. It's not a factor controlling whether secession is an option or not.

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...federal funding to these states.
Federal funding comes largely from the states. While some states may receive more than they give, that's not been the case for others, such as Texas, whose economy could more than survive without 'federal funding', should its population ever truly choose to opt for independence.
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Old 18.11.2012, 08:53
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

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Secessionist thinking has been a minority political opinion in the United States since reconstruction.

The people who wrote this petition know well that they cannot secede from the United States. There is no problem with discussing the legality of secession in this context because 1.) The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land and does not permit secession (the Confederacy was never legally recognized as an independent state) 2.) the amount of Federal property in these southern states and 3.) federal funding to these states.
the amount of fed property in, and fed funding into, states like Texas is completely irrelevant to the issue of whether or not secession is "illegal". and yes, the Constitution does not expressly permit secession, but nor does it prohibit it. and, since you may not realize it, the Constitution is structured in such a manner as to reserve to the states all powers not expressly granted to the fed, i.e. you have the construction of implied power backwards.
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Old 18.11.2012, 10:10
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

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I wish new england would band together to form its own country
YES!

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or be annexed by Canada
NO!

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Old 18.11.2012, 10:35
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

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I wish new england would band together to form its own country or be annexed by Canada. I'm pretty tired of the tea party types who whine far too much. Let 'em go, I say.
http://www.vindy.com/news/2012/nov/1...-50-states/?nw

According to this its now all 50 states. How do you just let the tea party types go when they are embedded in every state (even where not the majority).

Do you start 3 to 5 countries and allocate them based on political ideals?

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The states of the 1861 Confederacy offered to compensate the Union for any Union-held property within their borders. Any state truly intent on seceding could do the same thing.
As long as they take their allocation of federal debt as well.

Actually maybe thats a way to clear the federal debt, let them buy their way out of the union
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Old 18.11.2012, 11:18
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

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I believe that the ranks of secession advocates are swollen mostly with disgruntled Republicans who blame Obama for all America's ills (and thought Bush did no harm). Most lack objective critical analysis skills, and haven't even given much thought to the logistics involved, or the various possible scenarios through which secession could take place — they just want out, and if left to themselves might well replicate the same top-heavy, bureaucratic, two-party poor-excuse-for-a-government in their independent states, just on a smaller scale.

There has been a thriving (but small) secession movement in various US states for a long time, peopled in part by folks who have studied and debated the historical, legal, and logistical implications. I don't expect them to be especially impressed by the current flash-in-the-pan surge in numbers, which, as said above, is mostly made up of folks who think Republican/'conservative' statism is different and somehow better than Democrat/'liberal' statism.

In short, despite all the noise, don't look for any actual US secessions in the near future, though the movement is hardly in decline.
NO, I do NOT believe that it in Texas is only Republicans who feel like it. And "Double-You" while trying to be a Texan in fact always was a Yankee who grew up in Texas. He only purchased that farm in Texas when getting into the decisive Primaries. True, he was Governor of the State of Texas, not least as his instincts met the bloodthirsty instincts of many Texans.

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Some Texans drafted a petition requesting permission to secede. This was then joined by other crazies in other states attempting to elicit a response from the President. The whole thing is about harassing the President to answer their whining cries and has no basis in law or reality.
Crazies ? On all four visits (between 7 and 10 days each time) to Texas, I realized that about 88 to 92 percent of all Texans would favour Texas to become the Republic of Texas again as it was between 1836 and 1846 . And Texas today no longer is the weak and endangered entity it was back then but would be a sizeable country. Even people whose ancestors arrived in Texas AFTER 1902/1905 tend to be fierce TX nationalists. To join with Louisiana would be liked, but hardly with those on the Eastern Seaboard (FL/GA/SC/NC/VA).

The "Pacific Block" (NV/CA/OR/WA) in the past elections joined forces with the Northeast and amazingly NM/CO. I however rather might imagine them to separate under whatever guise. As Virginia to Maine and Massachusetts to Minnesota in reality are worlds apart from the PacificBlock.

The Northeast between Potomac and the Canadian border might feel happier no longer being connected to the conservative block between the Alleghenies and the Rockies.

What is so bad about such possibilities ? The Pacific Block might be joined by British Columbia, while the Northeast may be joined by Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and New Brunswick.

While Quebec might unite with Haïti and GuyaneFrançaise/Cayenne into the Confédération Francophone d'Amerique (CFA)
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Old 18.11.2012, 13:37
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

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http://www.vindy.com/news/2012/nov/1...-50-states/?nw

According to this its now all 50 states. How do you just let the tea party types go when they are embedded in every state (even where not the majority).

Do you start 3 to 5 countries and allocate them based on political ideals?
"Currently, 6 secession petitions have reached that threshold - from Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, Tennessee, Georgia and Texas. The petition from Texas has more than 100,000 signatures-although according to another petition, it seems that 5,000 people in Austin would like to be granted independence from the state of Texas while remaining part of the United States."

Go Austin! It'd be great if Mississippi joined those states, too. I'd love to see Louisiana deal without Federal aid since they're still rebuilding from Katrina as well as recovering from the oil spill from 2 years ago.

I don't know how it would go if some states really did secede, but MS and AL would be like having a Bangladesh at our back door no matter what their political ideals. Maybe Romney could finally be president somewhere though....
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Old 18.11.2012, 13:41
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Re: US secession, Americans abroad, FATCA..

Interesting that thar White House Petition thing is.

Some noble while others are totally redonkulous.

This is my favorite...

Halo Master Chief stature on white house lawn
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