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Old 07.12.2012, 22:12
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Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

The official history of that event is that it was a “sneak attack” precipitated by war-crazed Japanese militarists, and that the totally unprepared Americans – kept from arming themselves by evil “isolationists” in Congress and the Republican party – were caught completely by surprise.

Did Roosevelt know ?

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Old 07.12.2012, 22:16
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

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The official history of that event is that it was a “sneak attack” precipitated by war-crazed Japanese militarists, and that the totally unprepared Americans – kept from arming themselves by evil “isolationists” in Congress and the Republican party – were caught completely by surprise.

Did Roosevelt know ?

just guessing "YES"
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Old 07.12.2012, 22:41
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

I just read about this brazen attack in The Local! I hope everyone is alright.
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Old 07.12.2012, 23:23
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

I read something recently about the economic sanctions that were in place against Japan during the years before the attack.

Would it be surprising to know that oil sanctions were involved?

I am not justifying any reason to make war, but you have to wonder if Pearl Harbour was what the American war mongers perhaps wanted and needed to get the American people fired up to jump into war (reeks like Sept. 11).

At the Kornhausbibliothek, I also recently thumbed through a large print book of photographs of people from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the photos were shortly after the hydrogen bombs were dropped. It hurt me to put the book down.

I wish we never see conflict on that scale again. Maybe we learned our lesson. We just can't forget it.
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Old 08.12.2012, 08:24
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

I have visited Pearl Harbour - it was a very moving experience. The wrecks of some the ships still lay in the water. The whole fleet were sitting ducks.
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Old 08.12.2012, 08:53
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

Yes but only the obsolete battleships, the carriers were at sea.
December sixth, strange how we forget, Battle of blood river 1836, 3000-4000 Zulu warriors dead at the cost of zero Voortrekkers, more or less the beginning of the end for the Zulu empire, changed the face of south africa forever and therefore ours.
1941 Britain declared war on Finland.
1704 The battle of Chamkaur Sahib.
Interesting to speculate if the US would have entered the war if Pearl Harbor had not happened.
I think yes they would have, however much later, maybe just that little bit too late for the industry to gear up to supply the allied forces.
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Old 08.12.2012, 09:11
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

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I read something recently about the economic sanctions that were in place against Japan during the years before the attack.

Would it be surprising to know that oil sanctions were involved?
What does that have to do with anything? Japan was being sanctioned by the US for its aggressive, expansionistic, and imperialistic behavior in the Pacific, such as the atrocities committed in Manchuria against the Chinese, such as the Nanking Massacre, where as many as 300,000 were killed in one city alone, more than the combined casualties of both atomic weapons.

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I am not justifying any reason to make war, but you have to wonder if Pearl Harbour was what the American war mongers perhaps wanted and needed to get the American people fired up to jump into war (reeks like Sept. 11).
Yes, because we want our people to be killed, so we can waste time and resources getting more people killed. The general consensus in the US was a strong desire to stay out of it; we'd already fought in one foreign war and didn't want more of someone else's problems. And Sept 11th as an inside job? That just reeks of conspiracy-nuttiness...

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At the Kornhausbibliothek, I also recently thumbed through a large print book of photographs of people from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the photos were shortly after the atomic bombs were dropped. It hurt me to put the book down.
FTFY. Yes, the use of nuclear weapons were terrible, and I truly hope that is the only time the world sees their use in anger. However, I believe that US leadership truly believed the estimates of as many as 10 Million dead from an invasion of Japan (1 million US serviceman, 9 million Japanese). The European Axis powers had been defeated and Japan was entirely unable to defend herself, yet would not acquiesce; the Japanese military leadership were training the young, elderly, women, and the disabled to defend the island with wooden sticks and improvised explosives.
Japan was thoroughly defeated, but would not give up, rendering this invasion almost inevitable; the Allied powers wanted nothing less than a complete end to the war and half-measures, conditional surrender, and armistice wouldn't be enough this time. Truman saw a way out of what could have been true wholesale slaughter- the use of nuclear weapons. I don't think any historian would claim that this choice was an ideal one; his options were "Terrible" and "More Terrible." It is also hard to sit in judgement of this man, as noone else has been in that position before or since. Whichever choice he made, the costs would be too high, but this is why war is so evil and why humankind (IMO) has struggled over the last 66 years to ensure no war of this scope ever occurs again; I hope humanity always remains vigilant against this level of evil excess.

BTW, did that book show the images of the brutal beheadings of unarmed civilians and Allied POWs, and the shattered bodies of all those raped and wantonly murdered by the Japanese? I won't say that atrocities weren't committed on both sides, but I will say that it wasn't the Allied forces committing the majority of them.

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I wish we never see conflict on that scale again. Maybe we learned our lesson. We just can't forget it.
I pray that we have learned this lesson, but I am always fearful of the possibility that future generations will lose esteem for what was so dearly purchased by their forebears. May mankind always remain vigilant against our baser instincts.
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Old 08.12.2012, 10:55
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

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Truman saw a way out of what could have been true wholesale slaughter- the use of nuclear weapons. I don't think any historian would claim that this choice was an ideal one; his options were "Terrible" and "More Terrible."
At the end of the day and regardless of the pro and con's for the use of the Japan Nukes, I firmly believe that if humanity had not seen the fury of the bombs the powers that are may have not shown so much restraint in the last nigh on 70 years.
Eye witness memories and reports of the scientists and militaries who evaluated the effect of the bombs postwar are said to have gone home and superimposed the destruction over their own cities.
Perhaps the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not die in vain.
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Old 08.12.2012, 16:56
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

The bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a disgrace in the history books, US should be ashamed of this act of cowardliness, there was absolutely no reason for this and theory that many civilians were spared due to this is just pure bull, (the only reason US had was to show Soviet that they had nuclear bombs, that's all...)

Nobody but US believes in this, same as the world believed that US saved Europe from the Nazi's in WWII, it was thanks to Soviet nobody else, they made the biggest sacrifice...
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Old 08.12.2012, 16:57
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

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Nobody but US believes in this, same as the world believed that US saved Europe from the Nazi's in WWII, it was thanks to Soviet nobody else, they made the biggest sacrifice...
Maybe so, but it was the Yanks who subsequently saved us from the Soviets.
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Old 08.12.2012, 18:24
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

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The bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a disgrace in the history books, US should be ashamed of this act of cowardliness, there was absolutely no reason for this and theory that many civilians were spared due to this is just pure bull, (the only reason US had was to show Soviet that they had nuclear bombs, that's all...)

Nobody but US believes in this, same as the world believed that US saved Europe from the Nazi's in WWII, it was thanks to Soviet nobody else, they made the biggest sacrifice...
And I say they had to safe there owen ass from the nazis ,your funny I also know some canadian which did some shootig over there if you want i send you some history books
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Old 08.12.2012, 18:27
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

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The bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a disgrace in the history books, US should be ashamed of this act of cowardliness, there was absolutely no reason for this and theory that many civilians were spared due to this is just pure bull, (the only reason US had was to show Soviet that they had nuclear bombs, that's all...)

Nobody but US believes in this, same as the world believed that US saved Europe from the Nazi's in WWII, it was thanks to Soviet nobody else, they made the biggest sacrifice...
Wow, (and this is the first time I've said this), what an asshat opinion...

Mishimishi, you have anything to say, or do you just drive-by groan?
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Old 08.12.2012, 20:31
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

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Mishimishi, you have anything to say, or do you just drive-by groan?


That's what I thought...
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Old 09.12.2012, 00:43
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

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The bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a disgrace in the history books, US should be ashamed of this act of cowardliness, there was absolutely no reason for this and theory that many civilians were spared due to this is just pure bull, (the only reason US had was to show Soviet that they had nuclear bombs, that's all...)

Nobody but US believes in this, same as the world believed that US saved Europe from the Nazi's in WWII, it was thanks to Soviet nobody else, they made the biggest sacrifice...
Yep talk about cowardliness and civillies

http://www.4thmedia.org/2012/03/13/p...still-deny-it/
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Old 09.12.2012, 01:31
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

My best memories of Pearl Harbor are the South Park episode "Chinpokemon" and the Ben Affleck film

Seriously though...

In terms of atrocities the Imperial Japanese Army could not match the Mongols and their invasions of Khwarezmia, and other Mongol invasions of Russia and China - it's just that there were no photos in them days...

I understand there was method in the mayhem - instill utter fear and obedience in the captured lands by making gruesome examples out of any points of resistance.

And did you know, in my official Red China dictionary there is a term "xicheng", which literally means "clean city", and is translated into English as "massacre the dwellers in a captured city".
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Old 09.12.2012, 01:45
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

Oh, and read the Bible if you want to know about more war crimes and massacres on a "Biblical" scale. Although, funnily enough the gory bits all seem to get toned down later in the book, except maybe the bits about horned beasts and judgements..
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Old 09.12.2012, 04:21
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

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The official history of that event is that it was a “sneak attack” precipitated by war-crazed Japanese militarists, and that the totally unprepared Americans – kept from arming themselves by evil “isolationists” in Congress and the Republican party – were caught completely by surprise.

Did Roosevelt know ?


Thanks for the highly interesting video. Which shows that FDR had lots of warnings, lots of danger reports, lots of information, but at the other hand did not have sufficient details and clearly was not aware of the EXTENT of the upcoming onslaught.

A lot is said about how much the Brits knew. In spite of that, the Japanese in December 41 succeeded not just on Wake Island, Guam, Midway and the Philippine Islands but also clearly on Malaya and in Singapore.

Which means that HOW it finally happened DID surprise FDR and his crew, and HOW the Japanese worked in regard to Singapore and Malaya DID surprise the Brits as well. Simply look up the relevant history and see how many of its top-ships the Royal Navy lost out there within a week.

I mean, just look at the sequence with the discussion about where the Japanese fleet would turn. A) they were not aware of the actual location B) they were not aware that Yamamoto split his fleet into two or three forces C) the Japanese diplomats on purpose were MISinformed

************************************************** *********************************

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Yes but only the obsolete battleships, the carriers were at sea.
December sixth, strange how we forget, Battle of blood river 1836, 3000-4000 Zulu warriors dead at the cost of zero Voortrekkers, more or less the beginning of the end for the Zulu empire, changed the face of south africa forever and therefore ours.
1941 Britain declared war on Finland.
1704 The battle of Chamkaur Sahib.
Interesting to speculate if the US would have entered the war if Pearl Harbor had not happened.
I think yes they would have, however much later, maybe just that little bit too late for the industry to gear up to supply the allied forces.
Alistair Cooke, the famous British TV journalist, repeatedly stated that FDR would have concluded a treaty with Nazi Germany, giving Hitler complete rule over the continent against a German NON-agression comittment in favour of Britain and the USA.

************************************************** ****************************************

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The bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a disgrace in the history books, US should be ashamed of this act of cowardliness, there was absolutely no reason for this and theory that many civilians were spared due to this is just pure bull, (the only reason US had was to show Soviet that they had nuclear bombs, that's all...)

Nobody but US believes in this, same as the world believed that US saved Europe from the Nazi's in WWII, it was thanks to Soviet nobody else, they made the biggest sacrifice...
The bombs onto Hiroshima and Nagasaki were dropped in order to terminate a war, which in case of a "heroic" invasion of Japan would have cost the lives of more than a million US soldiers and more than 10 million Japanese people

In fact, President Truman offered a peace agreement to Japan via the Swiss embassy in Tokyo. And in this, Truman even gave up the standpoint of FDR about an unconditional surrender. The Swiss ambassador got a complete and definite refusal from the Japanese government, and only then did Truman finally sign the command.

The Soviets ? Sure, they lost more lives than the US-Americans (in percapita and total figures) as the Soviet Union WAS invaded by Nazi Germany but not the USA. But did the USSR liberate France, the BeNeLux countries or Italy ? Did the USSR deliver weapons to the USA and Britain rather than the other way round ? And who at the start of WWII signed a treaty with Hitler ? Oh sure, Mum thoroughly admired USSR Marshal Kliment Voroshilov but objectivity never was her strong point

************************************************** *********************************

Last edited by Wollishofener; 09.12.2012 at 05:12.
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Old 09.12.2012, 12:41
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

There was no way that Germany could have won a prolonged conflict, just no way.
For starters the Nazziz financed the entire Reich with a system called the MEFO Wechsel.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mefo-Wechsel
And just like a lot of the "bubble economies" it had to get more and more and more to survive, very much like a snowball system, the national socialist bubble burst and could only be refinanced by military aggression, without the war it would only have been a matter of time for the National socialist government to collapse.

Maybe some forum economist can confirm that they used a system, in effect a system that in it's base is still used today by the stock market to make money.
Big Bang II in a nutshell.


What a lot of people forget that it took the UdSSR and the Allies to stop Germany. Not one country could have done it alone, not in the timeframe, we must also not forget that the Americans had another opponent who signed his mail "Tojo!" The European war was Russian the Pacific war American. The main US war contribution in the west was the sheer unstoppable mass of factory output washed over on a sea of oil, the allies won, the Russians died, the Germans lost.
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Old 09.12.2012, 13:15
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

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The bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a disgrace in the history books, US should be ashamed of this act of cowardliness, there was absolutely no reason for this and theory that many civilians were spared due to this is just pure bull, (the only reason US had was to show Soviet that they had nuclear bombs, that's all...)

Nobody but US believes in this, same as the world believed that US saved Europe from the Nazi's in WWII, it was thanks to Soviet nobody else, they made the biggest sacrifice...
We should keep in mind the political situation in the US in 1945. The American population was actually very tired of the war. Before an invasion of the Japanese main islands could begin there was one more island to invade. After they had taken this islands American troops would have had to wait several months ontol the wether allowed an invasion. Exactly in this waiting period there were elections.

The Japanese strategy was to inflict such high casualties onto the US troops as possible in order to turn the poppular oppinion even more against the continuation of the war against Japan. They hopped that a new government were elected who promiced to quickly end the war would then make peace with Japan.

Possibly the atomic bombs were the only chance of the US winning the war...
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Old 09.12.2012, 13:28
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Re: Pearl Harbour, 71 years ago ( day of infamy )

The atomic bombs were developed with Germany in mind, and not Japan.

However, the European war ended before they could be used, so waste not, want not.

Tom
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