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Old 05.02.2013, 08:22
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U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

Basically, the article says that if someone is a threat to the US, whether they have specifically done anything yet or not, if it's not feasible to capture them, they can be intentionally killed and it doesn't violate the US policy against assassination, since it's more like pre-emptive self defense.

Who is driving this bus? Oh yeah, the "progressive" I-won-a-Nobel-Peace-prize-before-I-took-office Obama Administration.

http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news...americans?lite
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Old 05.02.2013, 08:31
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

Surprised? I am not. There are probably twenty or more other "laws" signed behind closed doors that give the control-freaks more decision making power over unorthodox activities like this.

Reminds me of the witch hunts of earlier and the church's killing spree from only a handful of history books. History repeats itself.
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Old 05.02.2013, 08:41
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

Obama has indeed dramatically increased offensive use of drones. It's bad policy to show coffins draped in the Stars and Stripes being offloaded from C-17s back home when you can instead make strikes from the safety of your bunkered video game facility at Creech AFB, NV. ("The bravery of being out of range" - quote from Roger Waters "Amused to Death").

No US politician is ever going to admit this in clear terms, but the life of one American is clearly considered to be worth a bunch more than a few "bad calls" or "collateral damage" when the military strategists get it wrong. I'd bet that for every successful mission like Abbottabad, a whole load went awry with a string of innocent casualties.

You can look at this both ways:

The American point of view: We made some poor calls and a few (sic) innocents lost their lives for the greater good.

Alternative view: Every human life is sacred and of equal value. No one has the right to play God.

Conclusion: Only Americans get to vote for their president and choose who rules the planet. The war on terrorism has degenerated into state sponsored fear and paranoia à la McCarthyism.
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Old 05.02.2013, 08:47
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

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A confidential Justice Department memo concludes that the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S.

Americans, don't trust your elected democratic government, go out and buy some missiles to protect yourselves from UAVs! Saudi Arabia will sell you some.

(Maybe I should not have written that, I will never get to Disneyland now. )
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Old 05.02.2013, 08:49
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

Don't think it's just the current admin. I'm sure that Bush would have ordered/approved the same thing. America seems to think it can do what it likes wherever and whenever:

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/02/...lses-fbi-spys/

Unfortunately most countries seem to let them get away with it.

It also saves on those costly, inconvenient trial things you know.
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Old 05.02.2013, 09:11
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

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Don't think it's just the current admin. I'm sure that Bush would have ordered/approved the same thing. America seems to think it can do what it likes wherever and whenever:

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/02/...lses-fbi-spys/

Unfortunately most countries seem to let them get away with it.

It also saves on those costly, inconvenient trial things you know.

Sorry, but that's not exactly true...

CNN September 2012(CNN) -- Covert drone strikes are one of President Obama's key national security policies. He has already authorized 283 strikes in Pakistan, six times more than the number during President George W. Bush's eight years in office.
As a result, the number of estimated deaths from the Obama administration's drone strikes is more than four times what it was during the Bush administration -- somewhere between 1,494 and 2,618.
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Old 05.02.2013, 09:18
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Sorry, but that's not exactly true...

CNN September 2012(CNN) -- Covert drone strikes are one of President Obama's key national security policies. He has already authorized 283 strikes in Pakistan, six times more than the number during President George W. Bush's eight years in office.
As a result, the number of estimated deaths from the Obama administration's drone strikes is more than four times what it was during the Bush administration -- somewhere between 1,494 and 2,618.
And you don't think that maybe tech advancement had had something to do with that?

Is only relatively recent that the drones are able to shoot/carry anything at all, let alone perform surgical strikes.

You know, Genghis Kahn didn't order any done strikes at all! Must have been the best peace time leader of all time!
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Old 05.02.2013, 09:28
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

The point in all of this is that you can't stop the will of people to fight for a cause that they believe in, even if you can't see their point of view. Guerilla tactics and undermining governments is a part of the historical cycle. When the Brits held America and wore red coated uniforms the "terrorists" became the "liberators" and the "revolutionaries" became the leaders.

The Americans are fighting what they perceive to be terrorism with so much self-righteousness that they seem to have forgotten their own historical roots. There are so many unanswered questions. After 9/11 when it was known that that hijackers were predominantly Saudis, why try to settle for a fight in Afghanistan just because they though Bin Laden was holed up there? Of course Afghanistan was ruled like some medieval hinterland, but so was Pakistan, Iran and North Korea. None of these countries were about to be new Disneyland resorts at the time either.

All of the nations involved in the Afghanistan theater of operations joined a campaign to show solidarity with each other and essentially the US (remember Bush's "You're either with us or against us" tirade?). It had little to do with the local population. And now amid much self initiated back slapping, the Allied forces are withdrawing and no doubt the mess will continue. Drugs, gold smuggling and religious restrictions will dominate this poor country. And some journalists will write biographies of the great generals who "served their nation", but did nothing for world peace.
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Old 05.02.2013, 09:48
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

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Sorry, but that's not exactly true...

CNN September 2012(CNN) -- Covert drone strikes are one of President Obama's key national security policies. He has already authorized 283 strikes in Pakistan, six times more than the number during President George W. Bush's eight years in office.
As a result, the number of estimated deaths from the Obama administration's drone strikes is more than four times what it was during the Bush administration -- somewhere between 1,494 and 2,618.
Yes, that proves my point that it isn't just the Obama admin that's been doing this. Thanks.
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Old 05.02.2013, 10:08
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

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And you don't think that maybe tech advancement had had something to do with that?

Is only relatively recent that the drones are able to shoot/carry anything at all, let alone perform surgical strikes.

You know, Genghis Kahn didn't order any done strikes at all! Must have been the best peace time leader of all time!
UAVs were put into the field around 1995 and (publicly) weaponized about 5 years later. The first publicized drone strike was in 2002 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2402479.stm In other words, they were readily available to the Bush administration, so no, I don't think that tech advancement has anything to do with this.

"The General Atomics MQ-1 Predator is an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) used primarily by the United States Air Force (USAF) and Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Initially conceived in the early 1990s for reconnaissance and forward observation roles, the Predator carries cameras and other sensors but has been modified and upgraded to carry and fire two AGM-114 Hellfire missiles or other munitions. The aircraft, in use since 1995, has seen combat over Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bosnia, Serbia, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, and Somalia"

However, my original point wasn't to compare Bush to Obama, we've already established that lots of people don't like Bush. What I'm pointing out is that the Obama administration is making decisions that even the ACLU is raising concerns about.

Just saying "Oh well, Bush would have done the same thing." Isn't true and even if it was, how would that make it right? It seems like anytime an idealist is confronted with reality, the immediate fallback position is to start finding somebody worse than their hero....

At best, this attitude as wishful thinking. It's like when you catch a kid with their hand in the cookie jar and the defense is "yeah, but little jimmy was doing it."

That still doesn't make it OK.
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Old 05.02.2013, 10:12
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

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Yes, that proves my point that it isn't just the Obama admin that's been doing this. Thanks.
Was your point that it is okay to intentionally kill people with drones before they do anything? Because the fact that the Obama administration is perfectly okay with this concept is the point that I was trying to make.
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Old 05.02.2013, 10:25
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

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Was your point that it is okay to intentionally kill people with drones before they do anything? Because the fact that the Obama administration is perfectly okay with this concept is the point that I was trying to make.
It's not entirely down to Obama you know. There's this myth that the President authorizes everything in the military's chain of command. The decision to strike moves up from intel on the ground, through analysts, from enlisted men in lower ranks, to folks with stars on their shoulders who make decisions based on their understanding of given scenarios and then you look at what assets they have available in the area to deal with it.

Let's use the basic analogy of an elephant trying to stamp on an ant, the odds favor the ant however intimidating the size of the elephant. Then you replace the elephant with motion sensing moth like drones and your ants become more visible. And then you think you see something bad going down, so from the comfort of their bunker they arm the Hellfire missiles and just like in a video game, the target is splashed. Except they may have messed up. The "sniper" was a photographer with a telephoto lens, the cart of Stingers was wood for a fire.

You can't blame the President from trying to use the assets that his military own; taking out the troops on the ground reduces your own losses, but will invariably lead to more errors. But Americans can stomach that better as I wrote in my earlier post.
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Old 05.02.2013, 10:59
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

Assassin, I completely agree with your points. In times of armed conflict, mistakes will be made, and innocent people will be killed by accident.

But what I'm talking about here is different. This isn't military commanders making tactical decisions in the moment.

It is a policy paper from the US Justice Department, supported by the Obama- appointed attorney General of the United States, and the Obama advisor who is currently in process to be confirmed as the head of the CIA.

It specifically states that it's okay to kill people, including US citizens, before they have done anything and call it self defense on a national level.

In my mind, this isn't right, and in fact runs counter to one of the cornerstones of American democracy. It's the kind of thing that you would expect to see used as justification for murders in North Korea, not the USA.
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Old 05.02.2013, 11:12
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

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It is a policy paper from the US Justice Department, supported by the Obama- appointed attorney General of the United States, and the Obama advisor who is currently in process to be confirmed as the head of the CIA.

It specifically states that it's okay to kill people, including US citizens, before they have done anything and call it self defense on a national level.

In my mind, this isn't right, and in fact runs counter to one of the cornerstones of American democracy. It's the kind of thing that you would expect to see used as justification for murders in North Korea, not the USA.
I entirely agree. It's just that in the fog of war / fight against terrorism one loses the ability to take a neutral overview of the proceedings. Anyone who is seemingly not as hell bent on destroying all those who are perceived to be the bad guys as you, take on an "heir of obstruction". That's been the whole point since 9/11 that if America couldn't hit the dog, they'd mutually agree to kick the cat and then justify their actions as "self defense".

Don't forget that Israel and Russia also have a history of taking out perceived threats that allegedly stand in the way of the greater good. That's unfortunately what happens when you're policing the world. You get to define the rules and make up stuff to justify the errors. And the tragedy in all of this is that no one on the planet can do squat about it.
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Old 05.02.2013, 12:09
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

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Yes, that proves my point that it isn't just the Obama admin that's been doing this. Thanks.
but it is just the Obama administration that has been doing this, which is why Obama called for the preparation of the white paper to defend the actions in the first place. the issue here is not the use of drones in connection with military action, it is the use of drones to assassinate US citizens who are outside of US borders at the time of assassination, without due process or any of the other protections afforded US citizens under the country's Constitution.

it is utterly baffling to me that a President who was so vocal about the Bush administration's torture of non-US citizens (a technique that the Obama administration now admits was key in its pursuit of Bin Laden) is now ordering the assassination of US citizens without due process. what is even more baffling to me is the extent to which US citizens try to defend the actions of the current administration on the issue.
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Old 05.02.2013, 12:44
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

Don't forget signing the NDAA - which allows for indefinite detention of American citizens - into law, after saying he wouldn't in its current form. He may have had his reasons, described in this well-balanced article, but the fact of the matter is he did it twice. And the precedent it sets is a terrifying one.
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Old 05.02.2013, 12:53
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

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Was your point that it is okay to intentionally kill people with drones before they do anything? Because the fact that the Obama administration is perfectly okay with this concept is the point that I was trying to make.
No my point was that people seem to be blaming Obama without doing the same to Bush (your second post re Obama's usage is four times higher than Bush's for drone strikes). Both of them, and probably other presidents before them, have been escalating this sort of covert activity, totally against the spirit and laws of the US of A. The Kennedy admin was guilty of plotting assassination against Castro, do you really think other presidents haven't been doing the same thing?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#axzz2K1nccAjU

It's appalling and totally wrong, whoever is doing it. They perceive a "threat" whether it's from a US citizen or not and go in for the kill. No trial necessary so they don't have to provide any proof except for their say so and the world can wail, scream and holler to their hearts' content. The deed is done and another "threat" to the US is neutralised.

America is becoming increasing paranoid and is actually making situations worse by their actions, but they just can't/won't see it. Imho the biggest threat to world peace is the USA.
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Old 05.02.2013, 13:23
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

I worry about the precedent, and the sliding-slope. It's been established now with this, that citizens can be assassinated whom are perceived as threats to the United States. What we are finding too as time goes on is the definition of what is a terrorist is becoming more and more broad. There were already documents leaked that label survivalists, and anyone who reveres the constitution and personal liberties as being terrorists. I just wonder how long before the American public is desensitized to the "pre-emptive defense" of striking down folks who don't like where things are headed, and who are brave/foolish enough to speak up about it.
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Old 05.02.2013, 13:38
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

It's a tough place for the US to be. They've spent the better half of the last century as all-powerful, all-controlling. As the world potentially shifts from this, they are scared and paranoid. If they totally lose this power, they are afraid of being attacked (again), and it looks like they will go to lengths to prevent this risk.
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Old 05.02.2013, 13:45
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Re: U.S. Government says killing citizens with UAV's is OK.

MMerica, feck yeah! here to save the motherfecking day again!
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