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  #121  
Old 11.02.2013, 18:28
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

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you don't need to be a specialist farmer to realise that to raise, etc, chickens, for that cost, you need to use methods+feeds+processes which are cheap themselves. As said, just common sense (+ discussions with experienced chicken farmers, clearly stating you can't raise a quality fed and cared for chicken for £2.50 in the UK these days).
Let's say I'm just an average poorly educated housewife (or just a poor one)

I see one lot of chicken for £5 a brace and another for (say) £8 each that have been fed on the Jolly Green Giant's finest and wandered the hills of North Yorkshire taking in the sights.

Is there really a difference that means paying three times as much? I mean the man on the telly says it tastes better, but the cheap chicken tastes good enough to me, and I could buy an extra lasagne with the £3 (and still have a spare chicken).

Or is it just one of those fancy marketing things, like calling a sandwich a panini and charging double for it?

Faced with an avalanche of food snobbery*, some people have to draw the budgetary line somewhere. Often that's going to be around whatever gets them a decent sized meal, that can be prepared in the time they get home from work and when the kids have to go to bed, and is priced at whatever they can spare from the leccy jar.


* and I'm absolutely not accusing you of that.
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  #122  
Old 11.02.2013, 18:28
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

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One word- common sense
OK, but "common sense" doesn't operate in an informational vacuum: we agree on that, right? If you asked me whether or not CHF15 was a decent price for three snizzlebobs, all the common sense in the world wouldn't do me any more good than flipping a coin.

So really, before the "common sense" part even gets a chance to kick in, people must be basing their opinions on some level of background information. In your case you've said it rests on three sources:
- personal experience of raising chickens
- personal contact with farmers who raise chickens
- comparison with other, higher retail prices of chickens

The first two aren't sources of information most people have. Great that you do, but most people standing in the supermarket don't. So for them, it's all down to your third source of information, comparison shopping.

In other words, you're asking people to reason that "if Y is a good product, and Y is twice the price of X, there must necessarily be something wrong with X". Do you see the problem here?
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  #123  
Old 11.02.2013, 18:31
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

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Or is it just one of those fancy marketing things, like calling a sandwich a panini and charging double for it?
Well, as panini literally means two or more sandwiches, of COURSE you should be paying double!

Tom
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  #124  
Old 11.02.2013, 18:37
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

Yes I do, with the NECESSARILY bit. It's been discussed before, about some Swiss people (and others too) AUTOMATICALLY believing that if something is expensive, it HAS TO be better quality. To this extent I agree with you. (A good example for instance would be face-creams/cosmetics, with many cheaper brands being just as good or better than much more expensive 'branded' ones).

But even in Tesco, you can compare with very little effort. If you have 2 chickens for a fiver (£5 or £2.50 each) and next to them other, often smaller chickens, some of them free-range and/or organic, for a couple of £s more, or double even - and in the case of local organic 3 times as much - you don't have to be a genius to realise there is probably (surely?), an excellent reason, or more, for this, and it does not take a genius either to work out what the likely reasons are (husbandry, feed, antibiotics, 'processing' etc). Mirfield, totally agree about your 'food snobbery' comment. And this is not at all what I am talking about, as you guessed. Agreed too that 'food snobbery' does not help - as it fudges the issues.

Last edited by Odile; 11.02.2013 at 19:21.
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  #125  
Old 11.02.2013, 18:40
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

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Let's say I'm just an average poorly educated housewife (or just a poor one)

I see one lot of chicken for £5 a brace and another for (say) £8 each that have been fed on the Jolly Green Giant's finest and wandered the hills of North Yorkshire taking in the sights.

Is there really a difference that means paying three times as much? I mean the man on the telly says it tastes better, but the cheap chicken tastes good enough to me, and I could buy an extra lasagne with the £3 (and still have a spare chicken).

Or is it just one of those fancy marketing things, like calling a sandwich a panini and charging double for it?

Faced with an avalanche of food snobbery*, some people have to draw the budgetary line somewhere. Often that's going to be around whatever gets them a decent sized meal, that can be prepared in the time they get home from work and when the kids have to go to bed, and is priced at whatever they can spare from the leccy jar.


* and I'm absolutely not accusing you of that.
You could apply the same logic to an iPhone. They are a fairly superior phone compared with a lot and they cost three times the price.

So why are people, including your uneducated people buying them and not a cheap handset that also makes calls?

Is it because:
  • Their friends are buying them? Same could go for better food.
  • Media publicity? Same could be done for better food.
  • Price: People think they are getting a better phone because it costs more?Why not with food?


And I know you're talking about "poor" people but it's really not just those in the lower-income brackets who buy poor quality food.

And, conversely, there are those in the lower-income bracket that shop discerningly and buy quality.

A lot of it really is because people don't care what they eat as long as its moderately tasty, filling and, crucially, doesn't remind them of the animal from whence it came.
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  #126  
Old 11.02.2013, 18:43
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

Good analogy there, Tom.

I was in a bar over the weekend and some kid pulled out a manky French chicken. His mates all laughed at him and started playing with their organic Swiss ones. Ringones were pretty cool, too.
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  #127  
Old 11.02.2013, 19:02
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

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You could apply the same logic to an iPhone.
I agree there are those that get their priorities wrong.

But I personally know people struggling to make ends meet, where literally every penny counts (and this in Yorkshire, who'da thought it).

An old friend used to impress me. She could feed herself and daughter for a week for less than the non-food crap I'd imulse buy as I sauntered around the supermarket. It was mostly cheap fruit and veggies rather than ready meals, so I actually agree with Odile on that point. But it was also cheap meat. She couldn't afford to be sentimental about the animals, their husbandry or what they had for breakfast.



Oo. I came over all Wolli, then...
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  #128  
Old 11.02.2013, 19:04
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

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What the frozen Lasagna is for UK families
is the Ravioli tin for Swiss families.
I grew up poor in Canada and was brought up with the idea in mind that when you're poor, you have to eat better because you can't afford to get sick.

I learned to cook from my brother and as adults, we both know how to make a meal for four in under an hour by spending less than a couple of bucks. I guess it's learned behaviour because nobody believes how little I spend on food.
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  #129  
Old 11.02.2013, 19:10
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

[QUOTE=mirfield;1795210]I agree there are those that get their priorities wrong.

But I personally know people struggling to make ends meet, where literally every penny counts (and this in Yorkshire, who'da thought it).

An old friend used to impress me. She could feed herself and daughter for a week for less than the non-food crap I'd imulse buy as I sauntered around the supermarket. It was mostly cheap fruit and veggies rather than ready meals, so I actually agree with Odile on that point. But it was also cheap meat. She couldn't afford to be sentimental about the animals, their husbandry or what they had for breakfast.

Agreed again, been there, done that. My mum and my mil had to feed us/ family on a very tight budget too. A ginormous difference between picking cheap meat, as in lower cuts which had to be cooked for longer, offal, etc - and 'cheap meat' as in poorly raised meat. It is not necessarily more difficult as such to cook 'cheaper cuts of meat', it takes just a bit longer (in the oven, so no need to stand around and watch).





Last edited by Odile; 11.02.2013 at 19:23.
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  #130  
Old 11.02.2013, 19:24
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

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Then they should relabel lots of things. Cheap ice cream doesn't contain cream or much else that's good:

Do you get my drift?
Well, I get that your drift is probably deliberately facetious, but if not, then you're dimmer than I previously thought.
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  #131  
Old 11.02.2013, 19:34
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

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But even in Tesco, you can compare with very little effort. If you have 2 chickens for a fiver (£5 or £2.50 each) and next to them other, often smaller chickens, some of them free-range and/or organic, for a couple of £s more, or double even - and in the case of local organic 3 times as much - you don't have to be a genius to realise there is probably (surely?), and excellent reason for this, and it does not take a genius either to work out what the likely reasons are (husbandry, feed, antibiotics, 'processing' etc).
So let's make it concrete. I was in Migros this afternoon, and the Zurich-region whole chicken there was 25% more expensive than the Swiss-but-not-Zurich whole chicken.

What, if anything, shall I conclude about relative levels of husbandry, feed, antibiotics etc. from this price discrepancy?
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  #132  
Old 11.02.2013, 19:43
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

No idea in this case MN - the situation we are talking about is the UK, which is a very different ball-game in so many ways. Perhaps somebody with local knowledge can enlighten us both? Did the label attempt to explain this?

(lovely to 'see' you btw).
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  #133  
Old 11.02.2013, 19:55
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

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An enormous difference between picking cheap meat, as in lower cuts which had to be cooked for longer, offal, etc - and 'cheap meat' as in poorly raised meat. It is not necessarily more difficult as such to cook 'cheaper cuts of meat', it takes just a bit longer (in the oven, so no need to stand around and watch).
Indeed, you are better off with a high-quality cheap cut, than a poor-quality better cut.

Same with offal.

BTW, on Sat. for our birthdays, we will be making tripe!

Tom

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  #134  
Old 11.02.2013, 20:04
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

You could start this new trend like in Montreal. People "shopping" free grocery from stores garbages containers. Meats, cheese, fruits & veggies, and plenty of other kind of food throw away because of the date while still perfectly eatable.
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  #135  
Old 11.02.2013, 20:07
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

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So let's make it concrete. I was in Migros this afternoon, and the Zurich-region whole chicken there was 25% more expensive than the Swiss-but-not-Zurich whole chicken.

What, if anything, shall I conclude

Fuel is still not expensive enough, apparently.
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  #136  
Old 11.02.2013, 20:22
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

If you'd ask those in a UK (or German) supermarket who bought an ultra-cheap ready-made meal in the past (or continue to do so, because they don't care at all about what they eat) if they'd trade better food for the big flat-screen TV (and the cable-subscription) they own - what do you think would be the outcome? How many percent would say "I know I should maybe, you know, like eat better and healthier and stuff, but currently, I can't afford it"?
Is that only a cliché?

The real question that should be asked by politics is then:
Why are iPhones, luxury cars, trainers, clothes, LCD-TVs and god knows what - why are those things status-symbols but healthy food isn't (for most)?
Until that has been changed, you'll see a new scandal coming up every couple of months, with the tedious inevitability of an unloved season.
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  #137  
Old 11.02.2013, 20:42
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

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If you'd ask those in a UK (or German) supermarket who bought an ultra-cheap ready-made meal in the past (or continue to do so, because they don't care at all about what they eat) if they'd trade better food for the big flat-screen TV (and the cable-subscription) they own - what do you think would be the outcome? How many percent would say "I know I should maybe, you know, like eat better and healthier and stuff, but currently, I can't afford it"?
Is that only a cliché?

The real question that should be asked by politics is then:
Why are iPhones, luxury cars, trainers, clothes, LCD-TVs and god knows what - why are those things status-symbols but healthy food isn't (for most)?
Until that has been changed, you'll see a new scandal coming up every couple of months, with the tedious inevitability of an unloved season.
Spot on!

Cut back the government ability to test food imports, expect to pay dirt cheap prices and yes meat and food in the UK is massively underpriced.

Its hardly surprising this has happened.

Although more expensive prices wont solve the problem since unfortunately more expensive does not mean it is higher quality at all.

What is required is a reduced reliance on meat particularly beef which is the most expensive to raise and rapidly becoming a contributor to the global water issues in many countries as beef doe require the greatest volime of water per kg of any meat.
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  #138  
Old 11.02.2013, 20:45
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

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Well, I get that your drift is probably deliberately facetious, but if not, then you're dimmer than I previously thought.
I'm much dimmer than you previously thought. In fact I'm incredibly dim.

That's why I like having these debates with you in particular as it's so much easier when we're thinking on the same level.
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  #139  
Old 11.02.2013, 20:54
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

I cry favoritism! Same joke, four-times-the-funny? And I beat him to it!

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  #140  
Old 11.02.2013, 21:10
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Re: British horsemeat scandal - Focus switches to Romania

Well as a Brit, I think that the news reports and this thread have adequately explained why I always thought that lasagna tastes funny over here.
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