Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07.03.2013, 07:39
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SG (the far away one...)
Posts: 7,182
Groaned at 121 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 10,872 Times in 4,148 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
BBC report on torture in Iraq...

That there was widespread torture during the "insurgency" in Iraqi prisons is hardly news. Everyone in his right mind also at least assumed that the US leaders were aware of it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...e-centres-link

What is new are the details and the planning behind it. The BBC and the Guardian reveal direct links between the torturers, Paetraeus and even Rumsfeld. In principle does the report claim that the US funded an Iraqui commando unit of 12.000 men who happened to be predominantly shiite extremists and let them loose on the Sunnies (who supported Saddam) and were fighting US troops.

Or even more blatantly put - most people in Iraq did not die during the invasion but during a bloody civil war. Allowing one side of Iraqis to torture the other one and use their "police" power for death squads... that is exactly what triggered the worst fighting by guys like al Sadr. Allowing the torture is in itself a war crime. Driving it is a magnitude worse. After WW2 were generals in war crime trials sentenced to death for less.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 07.03.2013, 07:48
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 15,831
Groaned at 221 Times in 170 Posts
Thanked 9,569 Times in 5,539 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: BBC report on torture in Iraq...

Quote:
View Post
That there was widespread torture during the "insurgency" in Iraqi prisons is hardly news. Everyone in his right mind also at least assumed that the US leaders were aware of it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...e-centres-link

What is new are the details and the planning behind it. The BBC and the Guardian reveal direct links between the torturers, Paetraeus and even Rumsfeld. In principle does the report claim that the US funded an Iraqui commando unit of 12.000 men who happened to be predominantly shiite extremists and let them loose on the Sunnies (who supported Saddam) and were fighting US troops.

Or even more blatantly put - most people in Iraq did not die during the invasion but during a bloody civil war. Allowing one side of Iraqis to torture the other one and use their "police" power for death squads... that is exactly what triggered the worst fighting by guys like al Sadr. Allowing the torture is in itself a war crime. Driving it is a magnitude worse. After WW2 were generals in war crime trials sentenced to death for less.

Gen Petreaus, just like Mr Eichmann, did "his duty". But Mr Rumsfeld according to his own statements, enjoyed what he did and was proud of it
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07.03.2013, 08:41
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SG (the far away one...)
Posts: 7,182
Groaned at 121 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 10,872 Times in 4,148 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: BBC report on torture in Iraq...

Quote:
View Post
Gen Petreaus, just like Mr Eichmann,...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07.03.2013, 08:47
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,351
Groaned at 181 Times in 106 Posts
Thanked 9,073 Times in 3,943 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: BBC report on torture in Iraq...

Quote:
View Post
After WW2 were generals in war crime trials sentenced to death for less.
that's because they were on the losing side. different rules for the winners...
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
This user groans at Phil_MCR for this post:
  #5  
Old 07.03.2013, 09:00
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 3,540
Groaned at 131 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 9,056 Times in 2,558 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: BBC report on torture in Iraq...

You know when you read stuff like this it makes you wonder if humans will ever learn to understand that there is no glory in abusing power? People who inflict torture or other acts of violence against defenseless victims are made with the same flesh and blood as the rest of humanity, but somewhere inside their flawed thinking brains, their desire to hurt others "for the greater good" runs against every programed morality circuit breaker that we all possess.

People - where is the love, where are the feelings, the positive energy? And you know what, they glorify the torturers in movies because they're beating up on the "bad guys". The demarcation lines have long since become nothing more than a fuzzy parallax, I don't know who's meant to be riding their moral high horse this month.
__________________
Crash your karma into little bits of happiness
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Assassin for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 07.03.2013, 09:30
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 429
Groaned at 30 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 429 Times in 248 Posts
Reb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond repute
Re: BBC report on torture in Iraq...

Meanwhile in Syria:
Quote:
October 2012
The United States military has secretly sent a task force of more than 150 planners and other specialists to Jordan to help the armed forces there handle a flood of Syrian refugees...
NY Times

March 2013
Instructors from US Special Forces are training armed opposition groups that are fighting against the government of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, the French newspaper Figaro reported on Sunday. The US commandos are training rebels from the so-called Free Syrian Army in camps located on the territory of Jordan.
Al Manar News

Mais comme souvent lors d'un conflit, les Forces spéciales n'ont pas attendu les annonces officielles pour passer à l'action. Dans le plus grand secret, bien sûr....
Le Figaro: Des forces spéciales américaines entraînent des rebelles syriennes en Jordanie
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07.03.2013, 09:42
FCBarca's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La Côte
Posts: 560
Groaned at 57 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 463 Times in 215 Posts
FCBarca has an excellent reputationFCBarca has an excellent reputationFCBarca has an excellent reputationFCBarca has an excellent reputation
Re: BBC report on torture in Iraq...

Harkens back to Edward Said's interpretation of Orientalism shaped by the Imperialism of past centuries - criminally destructive policies to maintain instability & prop up Western friendly dictatorships
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank FCBarca for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 07.03.2013, 09:56
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SG (the far away one...)
Posts: 7,182
Groaned at 121 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 10,872 Times in 4,148 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: BBC report on torture in Iraq...

Quote:
View Post
Harkens back to Edward Said's interpretation of Orientalism shaped by the Imperialism of past centuries - criminally destructive policies to maintain instability & prop up Western friendly dictatorships
Well, no. It does not make sense in this straight forward way to me:

1. The US has a number of "friends" in the region, all of which are not only not much better than Saddam, but happen to be Sun. Muslims. Reading that the US not only allowed, but trained and equipped the Shiites to kill their brothers must be raising more than an eye brow in the region right now.

2. You want the instabillity between nations. So you can sell them both a lot of arms... you do not want a civil war in a nation you already occupy. That only costs yourself money and lives...

3. The militias they supported are pretty openly pro-Iranian and therefore not exactly "Western friendly".

That's the worst part of the story - the whole thing makes no sense whatsoever. It seems way more that history might be repeating itself - like the Mujahiddin who were trained in guerilla warfare by the CIA to kill soviets and later decided to call themselves Taliban. Or the brave Iraqi allies that stopped the religious extremism spreading from Iran in the late 70s...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 07.03.2013, 12:33
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 276
Groaned at 71 Times in 33 Posts
Thanked 192 Times in 116 Posts
mishimishi is considered unworthymishimishi is considered unworthymishimishi is considered unworthy
Re: BBC report on torture in Iraq...

what makes you think that the US' Sunni allies didn't know about it and are just finding out? the US knows that the Saudis finance a lot of terrorists, and yet, the Saudis are one of the US' best allies.

Or that Israel is re-selling US weapons to the US' enemies like China?

you are projecting your value system on a bunch of psychopaths.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07.03.2013, 12:36
Dougal's Breakfast's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Deepest Glarnerland
Posts: 13,111
Groaned at 740 Times in 562 Posts
Thanked 28,119 Times in 9,181 Posts
Dougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond repute
Re: BBC report on torture in Iraq...

Macchiavellian =/= psychopathic
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Dougal's Breakfast for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 07.03.2013, 17:51
Meeyat's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Basel
Posts: 520
Groaned at 5 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 577 Times in 240 Posts
Meeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond repute
Re: BBC report on torture in Iraq...

Quote:
View Post
2. You want the instabillity between nations. So you can sell them both a lot of arms... you do not want a civil war in a nation you already occupy. That only costs yourself money and lives...

That's the worst part of the story - the whole thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Well, actually I think it does. More instability - more work for blackwater (or whatever their name is), and similar contractors. Security contracts are handled by mostly private firms, who have incredibly strong lobbies in Washington. If I were them, I would push for as much instability as possible in the region where they already have "contracts"....
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Meeyat for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Americans in Switzerland Working Group report on US citizens in CH town hall meetings zuridri Swiss politics/news 3 30.09.2012 19:59
Woman gets 10 years in Swiss child torture case The Local Swiss news via The Local 0 21.09.2011 14:36
F1 in HD on BBC rivernine TV/internet/telephone 1 15.01.2011 11:04
Report on foreigners in Swiss prisons mark Swiss politics/news 19 05.01.2008 19:54


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0