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  #21  
Old 14.05.2013, 13:51
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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i think the british had a very different idea of europe than the french and germans. a cooperation of independent states, rather than an ever closer union leading to a federation of europe.

for me, having a free trade union, and the free movement of capital and people is enough. no need even for a customs union.

harmonisation should take place on a case by case basis and with unanimous support, not QMV.

i think the swiss model is a good one.
Are the Germans the only ones who think that political union is a good idea?
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  #22  
Old 14.05.2013, 13:56
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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Are the Germans the only ones who think that political union is a good idea?
Aye, they've never come up with that idea before, have they?
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  #23  
Old 14.05.2013, 18:59
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

UKIP's main problem with Europe is that it contains foreigners. It's OK for funding UKIP, though.

Ex-UKIP MEP and former EU whistleblower claims UKIP peddles 'lies' and fails to vet candidates with far-right links
"Even if they say they have changed the constitution to have less BNP [members], they actually are taking the ground of the BNP and they have many members who are coming from the BNP and the National Front."
Farage defends 'Nazi salute' candidate
'Nazi salute' candidate comes second in Somerset

Nigel Farage boasts of his £2m in expenses
Farage insisted that he had not "pocketed" the money but had used the "very large sum of European taxpayers' money" to help promote Ukip's message that the UK should get out of the EU.
Ukip MEPs misused EU allowances to fund party's UK work
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  #24  
Old 14.05.2013, 19:46
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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Are the Germans the only ones who think that political union is a good idea?
Well I have not heard that a large portion of the population in any other state are jumping up and down to organise a referendum. And clearly at this stage the Euroland countries have no choice but to continue on their merry way.
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  #25  
Old 15.05.2013, 13:41
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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And clearly at this stage the Euroland countries have no choice but to continue on their merry way.
but where is this way leading?
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  #26  
Old 15.05.2013, 14:16
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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but where is this way leading?
An economic union I would imagine - coordinated budgets, taxes etc. The European Fiscal Compact agreement is the start of it.

Included in that agreement is a commitment by the 14 states that they will seeking have it implemented in the normal EU legal framework by the 1st of Jan. 2018, so I guess a parting of the ways between the UK and the EU may be on the cards in any case...

As per usual with this kind of stuff a referendum was required in Ireland before the government could sign off on it and 60.3% voted in favour of it. It seems that many see it as a way of putting a cap on the madness that went on in the past.
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  #27  
Old 15.05.2013, 14:18
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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As per usual with this kind of stuff a referendum was required in Ireland before the government could sign off on it and 60.3% voted in favour of it. It seems that many see it as a way of putting a cap on the madness that went on in the past.
Didn't they first vote against it, and were told to do it again and come back with the correct result? Or was that ratification of the Lisbon treaty?
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  #28  
Old 15.05.2013, 14:27
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

yes it was the Nice Treaty and the Lisbon treaty. 60.3% of voters voted for it, not 60% of eligible voters. most commentators considered it a least worst option like a shotgun wedding. once Ireland recovers economically, it remains to be seen the appetite to remain in Euroland. perhaps Compact rebates will become the order of the day.
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  #29  
Old 15.05.2013, 14:31
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

That was on Lisbon and the Irish people had a few doubts about what Lisbon would mean (The corporation tax rate for example, mainly due to misinformation from the no camp) and due to the lack of effort on the part of the governmnt to inform the people (assuming an easy Yes). The EU put assurances in place to subdue the doubts and the government attempted to inform the people(as these doubts had nothing to do with what the Lisbon treaty was about) and we (The irish) eventually voted it through with a 64% majority.

All this talk of being forced at gunpoint to change our decision or being forced to vote again and again till we got it "right" is nonesense spouted by those who are unhappy with the second result.
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  #30  
Old 15.05.2013, 14:48
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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(The irish) eventually voted it through with a 64% majority.
maybe the Bundesrat could learn something from the irish
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  #31  
Old 15.05.2013, 15:00
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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That's actually an extremely ignorant statement. From what I have seen, UKIP has supporters covering quite a wide range of the political spectrum, from far right loons to tradtional former Labour voters (ie far-left loons ). They will never get into government, but they have garnered enough support for the big 3 parties to sit up and take notice

I think you'll find a large proportion of the UK population think that the UKIP are nothing more than "Little Englanders" who are racist and homophobic, the BNP in suits is a phrase that has often described them.

It is interesting that they only have support in England and virtually zero presence in Scotland and Wales.
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  #32  
Old 15.05.2013, 16:43
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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I think you'll find a large proportion of the UK population think that the UKIP are nothing more than "Little Englanders" who are racist and homophobic, the BNP in suits is a phrase that has often described them.

It is interesting that they only have support in England and virtually zero presence in Scotland and Wales.
Yes, probably by your average Guardanista . All I was saying is that their membership is as diverse as the SVP here. I fully accept they have some pretty nasty characters from the far right, I never said they didn't, but to class them all as racist, homophobic bullyboys is just a fallacy.
And before you ask (or assume), the only policy of theirs I fully agree with is EU exit.
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  #33  
Old 15.05.2013, 16:59
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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Yes, probably by your average Guardanista . All I was saying is that their membership is as diverse as the SVP here. I fully accept they have some pretty nasty characters from the far right, I never said they didn't, but to class them all as racist, homophobic bullyboys is just a fallacy.
And before you ask (or assume), the only policy of theirs I fully agree with is EU exit.
I'd go as far as to say that most UKIP members are xenophobic - at least as regards any foreign presence in the UK. Their two most prominent policy themes are to do with immigration and Europe.

UKIP is trying to be like the Tory party of thirty years ago. Trouble is, it's not thirty years ago now.

Many voted for UKIP as a protest and don't think their policies are realistic or well thought through.
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  #34  
Old 15.05.2013, 17:16
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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I'd go as far as to say that most UKIP members are xenophobic - at least as regards any foreign presence in the UK. Their two most prominent policy themes are to do with immigration and Europe.

UKIP is trying to be like the Tory party of thirty years ago. Trouble is, it's not thirty years ago now.

Many voted for UKIP as a protest and don't think their policies are realistic or well thought through.
Wanting out of the EU is not the same as being xenophobic or anti-European. Neither does wanting tighter immigration controls equate to being racist.
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  #35  
Old 15.05.2013, 17:28
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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I'd go as far as to say that most UKIP members are xenophobic - at least as regards any foreign presence in the UK. Their two most prominent policy themes are to do with immigration and Europe.

UKIP is trying to be like the Tory party of thirty years ago. Trouble is, it's not thirty years ago now.

Many voted for UKIP as a protest and don't think their policies are realistic or well thought through.
point addressed by hannan:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...-the-evidence/

the most convincing eurosceptic arguments are based on economic and democratic grounds and i see this from both hannan and farage.

while it is possible to make ad hominem attacks against the eurosceptic, it would be better to tackle the more fundamental questions on sovereignty, the EU democracy gap and the case against the euro and the one-size fits all monetary policy (i think many of the pro eurozone camp have now admitted they were wrong in light of the eurozone crisis).

i'd add to that whether a single common external tariff is in the best interests of europe. why europe potentially makes decisions on the banking industry which could have devastating effects on the city of london, when the UK has most interest in this.

i don't believe in the one-size-fits-all approach for europe. i'd rather see more flexibility for member countries to set external tariffs (or have existing tariffs as maximum, rather than fixed). to keep a free trade zone in europe. to have europe-wide decisions based on unanimity only.
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Old 15.05.2013, 18:51
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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and leaving the EU does not mean that you leave the EEA/EFTA

http://www.efta.int/eea/policy-areas/persons.aspx
Britain left EFTA in the early 1970ies
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Old 15.05.2013, 18:56
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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i think the british had a very different idea of europe than the french and germans. a cooperation of independent states, rather than an ever closer union leading to a federation of europe.

for me, having a free trade union, and the free movement of capital and people is enough. no need even for a customs union.

harmonisation should take place on a case by case basis and with unanimous support, not QMV.

i think the swiss model is a good one.
The customs union is of high importance, and so, Switzerland is in customs union first of all inside EFTA but of course also via the Bilaterals with the EU. Add to this the semi-customs-union with the countriies allied to the EU in the framework of the Mediterranean Partnership
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  #38  
Old 15.05.2013, 21:41
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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That was on Lisbon and the Irish people had a few doubts about what Lisbon would mean (The corporation tax rate for example, mainly due to misinformation from the no camp) and due to the lack of effort on the part of the governmnt to inform the people (assuming an easy Yes). The EU put assurances in place to subdue the doubts and the government attempted to inform the people(as these doubts had nothing to do with what the Lisbon treaty was about) and we (The irish) eventually voted it through with a 64% majority.

All this talk of being forced at gunpoint to change our decision or being forced to vote again and again till we got it "right" is nonesense spouted by those who are unhappy with the second result.
This is very true, it was more a case of the EU Commission going back and address the issues that were of concern to the Irish people and then representing it them for approval.

I did not see it but it seems that Mr. Barroso was a big contributor to the No vote! At a press conference in Dublin he was unable to answer several question posed and eventually admitted that he did not understand it himself - this did not help their case.
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  #39  
Old 17.05.2013, 12:15
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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I think you'll find a large proportion of the UK population think that the UKIP are nothing more than "Little Englanders" who are racist and homophobic, the BNP in suits is a phrase that has often described them.
Definitely an apt description, judging from UKIP's far-right views about foreigners, immigrants, Eastern Europeans, Romanians, Bulgarians, Africans (e.g. "Black is beautiful but do we need 50 million?", "Australians and some South Africans may be fine, Poles and Nigerians may be less welcome"). (It's clear what they mean.)

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to class them all as racist, homophobic bullyboys is just a fallacy
Their own website suggests different, as do the reports about who they're letting into the party. They're there for anyone who agrees with the BNP but doesn't want to be seen as racist.

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It is interesting that they only have support in England and virtually zero presence in Scotland and Wales.
Nigel is now accusing Scottish protesters of racism towards the English, after launching his party's campaign in Scotland:

Nigel Farage blasts 'fascist scum' after Edinburgh confrontation

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  #40  
Old 21.05.2013, 16:03
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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Wanting out of the EU is not the same as being xenophobic or anti-European. Neither does wanting tighter immigration controls equate to being racist.
I didn't say they were racist.

I wasn't saying there was a logical entailment between being anti-EU and being xenophobic. Phil puts forward economic arguments.

On the other hand, if a party promotes its policies in these two areas as its flagships, that does suggest something. The best support for that suggestion would be provided by conducting an attitude survey of UKIP members and that isn't likely to happen.

Also, I don't think anyone was saying that all UKIP supporters are any particular thing. But if a xenophobe was to pick a party, it would surely be UKIP.
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