Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 21.05.2013, 20:40
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,028
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,712 Times in 6,857 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
I didn't say they were racist.

I wasn't saying there was a logical entailment between being anti-EU and being xenophobic. Phil puts forward economic arguments.

On the other hand, if a party promotes its policies in these two areas as its flagships, that does suggest something. The best support for that suggestion would be provided by conducting an attitude survey of UKIP members and that isn't likely to happen.

Also, I don't think anyone was saying that all UKIP supporters are any particular thing. But if a xenophobe was to pick a party, it would surely be UKIP.
I do not know much about the UKIP, actually almost nothing, BUT can understand whomever in Britain or elsewhere would love to get out of the E.U.

The E.U. in the past three decades became less and less federalist and more and more centralist. This is not what Europe should be. I hope that the Brits opt to stay in the EU but might welcome if it would be as narrow as possible, for example 51,2% pro EU and 48,8% against the EU ! So that the Centralists in the EU had to take a bit of a warning
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 22.05.2013, 12:48
MidfieldGeneral's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,415
Groaned at 54 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 2,572 Times in 1,083 Posts
MidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...64775465_n.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 22.05.2013, 14:27
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,484
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,338 Times in 5,682 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
I wasn't saying there was a logical entailment between being anti-EU and being xenophobic.
that's not true at all. as i noted before, the euro-sceptic arguments i'm most persuaded by revolve around the anti-democratic nature of the EU institutions, the poor quality of certain institutions vs national institutions and perhaps also economic arguments.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 22.05.2013, 14:53
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,555
Groaned at 50 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
that's not true at all. as i noted before, the euro-sceptic arguments i'm most persuaded by revolve around the anti-democratic nature of the EU institutions, the poor quality of certain institutions vs national institutions and perhaps also economic arguments.
Er . . . what's not true at all?

I just said that I didn't say there was a logical entailment between being anti-EU and being xenophobic.

I accept that your reasons aren't xenophobic.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 22.05.2013, 15:00
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Basel
Posts: 8
Groaned at 9 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
ashleyj722 is considered unworthyashleyj722 is considered unworthyashleyj722 is considered unworthy
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

UKIP isn't going to win because all they are going to do is split the tory vote. I think we have to be more worried about when the coalition fails which may be soon.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ashleyj722 for this useful post:
  #46  
Old 22.05.2013, 15:06
evilshell's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK, formerly Basel
Posts: 3,361
Groaned at 97 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 3,070 Times in 1,337 Posts
evilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

The Tories are imploding, and their whole in-out vote on the EU is dangerous politics gameplaying. Many people will not chose to stay in or leave based on logical issues, but on knee-jerk reactions.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank evilshell for this useful post:
  #47  
Old 22.05.2013, 15:07
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 2,089
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,069 Times in 1,057 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
i'm most persuaded by revolve around the anti-democratic nature of the EU institutions.
I'm sorry but as far as I'm concerned that is simply nonsense:
- You've got an elected parliament with powers over the commission, budget etc.
- You've got the council of ministers with representation from your nation's government
- And if you live in most EU countries you have a say in treaty amendments either via qualified majority voting of your national representatives or by referenda

Compare that to the UK:
- No written constitution & means to affect change by the people
- No oversight of government or parliament that a constitution brings
- No right of consultation via a referenda
- A government that can commit the country to the various EU treaties with any consultation
- A press that is dominated by one big owner
__________________
"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #48  
Old 22.05.2013, 15:49
MidfieldGeneral's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,415
Groaned at 54 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 2,572 Times in 1,083 Posts
MidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
The Tories are imploding, and their whole in-out vote on the EU is dangerous politics gameplaying. Many people will not chose to stay in or leave based on logical issues, but on knee-jerk reactions.
that's wishful thinking, do you have any evidence for this?
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 22.05.2013, 15:57
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,555
Groaned at 50 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
that's wishful thinking, do you have any evidence for this?
Yeah, it's just a mid-term reaction to UKIP's poll success. Everyone will get back in line as the next election approaches.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Gastro Gnome for this useful post:
  #50  
Old 22.05.2013, 16:03
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,411
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,611 Times in 6,217 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
Yeah, it's just a mid-term reaction to UKIP's poll success. Everyone will get back in line as the next election approaches.
The ukip are a bunch of incompetents lead by an incompetent. As such they are no electoral threat.

But just imagine what they could be if they got their act together and became a right wing populist force in the style of the svp. Things would look very different then. And all it would take is some real leader to step in. So don't assume that because it hasn't happened yet it will never happen.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #51  
Old 22.05.2013, 16:07
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,484
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,338 Times in 5,682 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
I'm sorry but as far as I'm concerned that is simply nonsense:
- You've got an elected parliament with powers over the commission, budget etc.
- You've got the council of ministers with representation from your nation's government
- And if you live in most EU countries you have a say in treaty amendments either via qualified majority voting of your national representatives or by referenda

Compare that to the UK:
- No written constitution & means to affect change by the people
- No oversight of government or parliament that a constitution brings
- No right of consultation via a referenda
- A government that can commit the country to the various EU treaties with any consultation
- A press that is dominated by one big owner
You might have a point if it was a system didn't allow us to be outvoted on things that are primarily in the UK's interests ( http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...27-706812.html ) and if the system had been put in place democratically in the first place (i.e. by referendum).

The system of electing MEPs is problematic in itself (although this is not an EU issue).

I believe a system of QMV without having a referendum to agree to putting QMV in place in essence anti-democratic of itself.

I'd prefer more local politics (similar to Switzerland with community level, cantonal level and federal level decision making) and would like to see move devolution of powers to give people more say in things that matter to them. The opposite of centralising powers in far off places.

EDIT: apart from never being asked on the various EU treaties in the first place - we had a referendum on a London Mayor FFS, you'd think joining the EU, Lisbon Treaty etc. would be more important and warrant a referendum, the main thing I find anti-democratic is that the EU as a whole is grabbing more and more power. Tenuously leveraging and interpreting existing provisions to provide more power and say than what was originally envisioned if not outright grab for new power and control (Lisbon Treaty, ESM - really terrifying that such a blatant grab can be proposed without much protest!).
__________________
By replying to this post, you hereby grant Phil_MCR a royalty-free license to use, in any way, anything posted by you on the internet. If you do not accept, stop using EF and delete your account.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 22.05.2013, 16:11
MidfieldGeneral's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,415
Groaned at 54 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 2,572 Times in 1,083 Posts
MidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
The ukip are a bunch of incompetents lead by an incompetent. As such they are no electoral threat.

But just imagine what they could be if they got their act together and became a right wing populist force in the style of the svp. Things would look very different then. And all it would take is some real leader to step in. So don't assume that because it hasn't happened yet it will never happen.

hear hear. look at all those BNP councillors who got in and had to resign from councils after 6 months as they were totally clueless. You'll see plenty of the same from UKIP councillors too later this year when they realize that they have to do all that tiresome stuff like setting budgets and having to compromise
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 22.05.2013, 16:27
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,555
Groaned at 50 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
The ukip are a bunch of incompetents lead by an incompetent. As such they are no electoral threat.

But just imagine what they could be if they got their act together and became a right wing populist force in the style of the svp. Things would look very different then. And all it would take is some real leader to step in. So don't assume that because it hasn't happened yet it will never happen.
They are an electoral threat to the Conservative Party.

It's not to do with UKIP winning seats.

It's to do with them attracting previously Tory voters and causing the Tories to lose to Labour or the Lib Dems in marginal seats.

This is why you see Tory MPs causing a fuss about UKIP issues like the EU and gay marriage. It's also why you say an immigration squeeze in the Queen's Speech.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Gastro Gnome for this useful post:
  #54  
Old 22.05.2013, 16:48
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,411
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,611 Times in 6,217 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
They are an electoral threat to the Conservative Party.

It's not to do with UKIP winning seats.

It's to do with them attracting previously Tory voters and causing the Tories to lose to Labour or the Lib Dems in marginal seats.

This is why you see Tory MPs causing a fuss about UKIP issues like the EU and gay marriage. It's also why you say an immigration squeeze in the Queen's Speech.
True, but you could say much the same thing of the bnp, maybe not now but at the height of its strength narrowing down labour majorities in traditional working class areas. My sister, who was at the time canvassing for labour showed me an internal email asking canvassers to take people expressing xenophobic views seriously and treat them with respect and listen to their concerns. If that was a change in policy, it's pretty clear it was in response to the bnp.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 22.05.2013, 16:55
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,555
Groaned at 50 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
True, but you could say much the same thing of the bnp, maybe not now but at the height of its strength narrowing down labour majorities in traditional working class areas. My sister, who was at the time canvassing for labour showed me an internal email asking canvassers to take people expressing xenophobic views seriously and treat them with respect and listen to their concerns. If that was a change in policy, it's pretty clear it was in response to the bnp.
The BNP vote was tiny compared to UKIP.

Also as the BNP is and was seen as more extreme they were more easy for the political mainstream to ostracise and combat in elections.

The Conservative Party doesn't know how to handle the UKIP threat, hence the current flailing.

You're right though that the threat isn't just in terms of winning seats, it's also to do with changing the policies of the major parties. Minority parties like the Greens (in the 90s) and the BNP (in the 00s) have had an impact on policy and discussion within the larger parties.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 22.05.2013, 17:26
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,484
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,338 Times in 5,682 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
They are an electoral threat to the Conservative Party.

It's not to do with UKIP winning seats.

It's to do with them attracting previously Tory voters and causing the Tories to lose to Labour or the Lib Dems in marginal seats.

This is why you see Tory MPs causing a fuss about UKIP issues like the EU and gay marriage. It's also why you say an immigration squeeze in the Queen's Speech.
yes. i think this is the problem with the system of voting for parties.

it would be nice if we could vote on issues or legislation. rather than find a party which supposedly agrees with me and watch them go back on their word, it would be nice if the electorate could be empowered to directly vote in legislation on key issues.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #57  
Old 22.05.2013, 17:31
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,555
Groaned at 50 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
yes. i think this is the problem with the system of voting for parties.

it would be nice if we could vote on issues or legislation. rather than find a party which supposedly agrees with me and watch them go back on their word, it would be nice if the electorate could be empowered to directly vote in legislation on key issues.
I like the idea in theory but I have doubts if it could be made to work successfully in the UK.

Our representational government still has a role because most of the population is politically ignorant and leadership is required. Can you imagine minaret type referendums in the UK? Yikes.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Gastro Gnome for this useful post:
  #58  
Old 22.05.2013, 17:45
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,411
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,611 Times in 6,217 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
I like the idea in theory but I have doubts if it could be made to work successfully in the UK.

Our representational government still has a role because most of the population is politically ignorant and leadership is required. Can you imagine minaret type referendums in the UK? Yikes.
I believe it is a chicken and egg thing. Give people real power and they grow into the responsibility that comes with it. Most Swiss people I know who do participate in referenda are also pretty savvy on the topics! Even the people with relatively simple backgrounds and education. The argument that you shouldn't let people have a say because they are too stupid has also been used by apologists for third world dictatorships, so be careful down which road you head.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #59  
Old 22.05.2013, 17:57
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,555
Groaned at 50 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
The argument that you shouldn't let people have a say because they are too stupid has also been used by apologists for third world dictatorships, so be careful down which road you head.
People should have a say. But the degree of direct vs representational democracy will depend on the geographical and historic context.

Parliamentary democracy has served the UK well and we have not had a dictator (arguably Cromwell).
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 22.05.2013, 22:55
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 2,089
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,069 Times in 1,057 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Quote:
View Post
You might have a point if it was a system didn't allow us to be outvoted on things that are primarily in the UK's interests ( http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...27-706812.html ) and if the system had been put in place democratically in the first place (i.e. by referendum).

The system of electing MEPs is problematic in itself (although this is not an EU issue).

I believe a system of QMV without having a referendum to agree to putting QMV in place in essence anti-democratic of itself.

I'd prefer more local politics (similar to Switzerland with community level, cantonal level and federal level decision making) and would like to see move devolution of powers to give people more say in things that matter to them. The opposite of centralising powers in far off places.

EDIT: apart from never being asked on the various EU treaties in the first place - we had a referendum on a London Mayor FFS, you'd think joining the EU, Lisbon Treaty etc. would be more important and warrant a referendum, the main thing I find anti-democratic is that the EU as a whole is grabbing more and more power. Tenuously leveraging and interpreting existing provisions to provide more power and say than what was originally envisioned if not outright grab for new power and control (Lisbon Treaty, ESM - really terrifying that such a blatant grab can be proposed without much protest!).
But none of this happened without the agreement of the states, it is more about how the UK internally decides on how it commits itself to the EU. And in that respect it appears that the UK government has unfettered powers, unlike the others who are restricted by their constitutions.

I found this summary of the referenda approving the various EU treaties - it appears that the Danes and the Irish are the only ones who require consultation on every single change! The peoples of both countries have rejected proposals in the past which the led to clarifications, renegotiations and so on.

Apart from the fact that politicians would have to give up a lot of power, I don't see why the UK could not bring in a constitution that would require referenda on important national commitments. After all the French constitution now requires a referendum for all future accession treaties too.
__________________
"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
european union, leaving eu, nutters




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Losing job; impact on mortgage exiled_CH Finance/banking/taxation 30 30.03.2012 01:49
Social finance / impact investing in CH EnglishAussie Employment 0 02.03.2011 14:38
Azoic dyes: impact on children MrVertigo Family matters/health 3 09.08.2010 22:46
Starting dates and impact on your salary Duncheg Employment 2 05.07.2010 10:13
Bypass GP to see specialist? Impact on insurance? andrewF Family matters/health 11 16.06.2009 19:48


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0