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  #61  
Old 22.05.2013, 23:35
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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People should have a say. But the degree of direct vs representational democracy will depend on the geographical and historic context.

Parliamentary democracy has served the UK well and we have not had a dictator (arguably Cromwell).
well, the UK system has been described as an elected dictatorship...
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  #62  
Old 22.05.2013, 23:37
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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I like the idea in theory but I have doubts if it could be made to work successfully in the UK.

Our representational government still has a role because most of the population is politically ignorant and leadership is required. Can you imagine minaret type referendums in the UK? Yikes.
well, this is why i think we should have a local votes on local decisions - i.e. vote on whether we build a minaret here in your neighborhood.
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  #63  
Old 23.05.2013, 00:09
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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Yeah, it's just a mid-term reaction to UKIP's poll success. Everyone will get back in line as the next election approaches.

This well possible. It however may be different, with the UKIP getting into parliament. It looks a bit as if Mr Cameron is becoming nervous.

I remember how James Callaghan governed with his Lab-Lib Alliance

And while the UKIP of course is right-wing, they may well capture votes on the Left.
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  #64  
Old 23.05.2013, 10:35
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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well, this is why i think we should have a local votes on local decisions - i.e. vote on whether we build a minaret here in your neighborhood.
The risk here is that a minority will always overruled by the local majority. As you state it at the moment it's too baldly simplistic.
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  #65  
Old 23.05.2013, 10:36
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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well, the UK system has been described as an elected dictatorship...
But it's not, really.
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  #66  
Old 23.05.2013, 11:15
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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The risk here is that a minority will always overruled by the local majority. As you state it at the moment it's too baldly simplistic.
But you can't equate not having a minaret with torture.

If the neighborhood doesn't want a minaret and you really want one, maybe that's an opportunity to reach out and explain why you need one rather than getting a court to force it on the locals. That's what happened in langenthal and it was the backlash over that cort ruling that got minarets banned in all of Switzerland. The Muslims of all Switzerland must be saying thank you to their brothers in langenthal.
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Old 23.05.2013, 11:15
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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The risk here is that a minority will always overruled by the local majority. As you state it at the moment it's too baldly simplistic.
And how would that work - the people go to the polls, the votes are counted and if there is a majority in favour the proposal is carried... have not heard of anywhere that the minority wins!

If people choose not to vote, then they have to accept the outcome...
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Old 23.05.2013, 11:33
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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People should have a say. But the degree of direct vs representational democracy will depend on the geographical and historic context.
I agree that a constitution is something that should be enduring and not easily changed, but by the same token just because you have done something a certain way for the last 100 years does not mean that you should not review it from time to time and confirm at it still has value.

Right now there is a constitutional review going on in Ireland and it is bring up all kinds of issues that were not even though of when the present constitution was enacted by the people back in 1937, things like:
- Same sex marriage
- Environmental protection
- Who should have the right to vote and at what age
and so on. These are things a nation should decide about independent of political parties.

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Parliamentary democracy has served the UK well and we have not had a dictator (arguably Cromwell).
Well according to what would seem to be a substantial number of people it has not since the find themselves part of an EU that they do not wish to be in...
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  #69  
Old 23.05.2013, 12:06
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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And how would that work - the people go to the polls, the votes are counted and if there is a majority in favour the proposal is carried... have not heard of anywhere that the minority wins!

If people choose not to vote, then they have to accept the outcome...
Say enough people got a referendum together to round up all the people with ginger hair and imprison them. The referendum passed.

This would be democratic, but also wrong and probably unconsititutional.

Mature democracies always have safeguards and referendums and elections are merely one segment of the democratic process.
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  #70  
Old 23.05.2013, 12:11
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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well, this is why i think we should have a local votes on local decisions - i.e. vote on whether we build a minaret here in your neighborhood.
There will always be NIMBYism.

No local decision making body (whether it's a council or an electorate) will decide to allow the nuclear power station, young offenders unit or Scientology campus in their back yard.

There's nearly always a justification for local choices being overruled by the centre. Sometimes.
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  #71  
Old 23.05.2013, 13:58
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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Say enough people got a referendum together to round up all the people with ginger hair and imprison them. The referendum passed.

This would be democratic, but also wrong and probably unconsititutional.

Mature democracies always have safeguards and referendums and elections are merely one segment of the democratic process.
That is why people have certain inalienable rights.

The danger is that by continuously adding to that list of inalienable rights, they are becoming watered down, and thus the protection they afford is being weakened.

Thus I think we would all agree that individuals have a right not to be tortured, not to have their property taken from them, not to be imprisoned without fair trial etc. but if you add to that list, that drug dealers may not be denied the right to reside in countries in which they father children, or that local planning laws shall not prevent minarets, I fell that is undermining and lessening the value and standing of those earlier rights. The folks who think that if they cannot win democratic elections, then it is fair to get their way by claiming their purpose to be an inalienable right on par with freedom from torture, those people are doing more damage than good.
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Old 23.05.2013, 17:13
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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The risk here is that a minority will always overruled by the local majority. As you state it at the moment it's too baldly simplistic.
Yes. Democracies always need protection for minorities. This protection is also missing in the EU process, where we see UK being outvoted on what is largely a UK issue.
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  #73  
Old 25.05.2013, 02:05
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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I don't really follow UK politics anymore (been out of the country too long), but like many Brits in CH I'm able to work here so easily because we are in EU.


If they won, and left EU, would we all be screwed?
The UK quitting the E.U. would be quite excellent for Switzerland. Switzerland and Norway of course would invite the UK to rejoin EFTA. Both plus Iceland and Liechtenstein have retained English as THE EFTA language, so that there would be no problem

I have to admit that I only took note of the UKIP when they made some wins in elections. Well, many Brits talk as if the Tories-Labours DUOpoly in Westminster is a traditional thing and forget that WW-ONE winner Prime Minister Lloyd George was a Liberal Premier and that Ramsey McDonald was the first Labour Premier. GrandDad and Mum in those days were learning/improving their English by listening to the BBC and so heard the man with his "docker-language" talking

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  #74  
Old 25.05.2013, 02:24
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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The risk here is that a minority will always overruled by the local majority. As you state it at the moment it's too baldly simplistic.

AS the example of Switzerland shows a decentral and federal system with much proportional voting gives minorities a chance to succeed per Cantonal or Municipal level. Just imagine each county to have its own elected parliament and all the ministers in the counties to be voted into office directly by the people

Imagine the House of Lords become a Senate with two directly elected chaps per county and the House of Commons having each county electing a number of MPs according to its population.. The Lords then could run for either chamber and under the flag of any party

The Monarch still could give the speeches to the United Federal Assembly just as up to now. But British Prime Ministers of the future would govern with coalition governments of two or three or four participating parties.

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  #75  
Old 25.05.2013, 02:52
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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The UK quitting the E.U. would be quite excellent for Switzerland. Switzerland and Norway of course would invite the UK to rejoin EFTA. Both plus Iceland and Liechtenstein have retained English as THE EFTA language, so that there would be no problem
I don't see what that would achieve! To get acces to the internal market you would need to join the EEA not EFTA.
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  #76  
Old 27.05.2013, 21:50
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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I don't see what that would achieve! To get acces to the internal market you would need to join the EEA not EFTA.
Sure, but Britain joining EFTA would make EFTA a real alternative to the EU.
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  #77  
Old 27.05.2013, 22:00
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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Sure, but Britain joining EFTA would make EFTA a real alternative to the EU.
That takes a lot of imagination considering how small it is, oh ya I think Iceland is rejoining the EU is it not???

I think I read somewhere that the UK exports about €16B per month to the EU, replacing that is a big ask. And of course motivation for the others to keep the UK out in these hard times...
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  #78  
Old 27.05.2013, 22:03
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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That takes a lot of imagination considering how small it is, oh ya I think Iceland is rejoining the EU is it not???
Unfortunately yes. Which means that EFTA is a link-up between Norway and Switzerland/Liechtenstein.
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  #79  
Old 27.05.2013, 23:22
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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That takes a lot of imagination considering how small it is, oh ya I think Iceland is rejoining the EU is it not???

I think I read somewhere that the UK exports about €16B per month to the EU, replacing that is a big ask. And of course motivation for the others to keep the UK out in these hard times...
EU would have more to lose than the UK. If we stopped imports and exports from EU, then we would have a net increase in our balance of trade:



Plus without the EU, the UK would be free to negotiate a free trade zone with China and the US, which could lead to much greater trade with these important trade partners (US is our biggest export partner, Germany 2nd, but Germany is biggest import partner).

Of course, leaving EU doesn't mean giving up the common market. It would make more sense to exit the EU, but keep parts (e.g. common market) better to pick and choose as Switzerland has done.

And even without common market, we can still negotiate bilaterals. I can't imagine trade stopping with Ireland.

Scrapping common fisheries could revive the UK fishing industry.

Would France want to give up selling us the product of their agriculture? Would Germany want to stop exporting cars to us?

A Federal Europe has never really been a desire for the UK. The French and Germans know it and so the idea of a lesser associate status has been floated. A (partial) UK exit could be in the common interest as it gives UK the status it wants, and allows the other countries to proceed down the road of Federalism if that's what they want.
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  #80  
Old 20.05.2014, 19:17
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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I think you'll find a large proportion of the UK population think that the UKIP are nothing more than "Little Englanders" who are racist and homophobic, the BNP in suits is a phrase that has often described them.
Ukip scraps 'carnival' to prove it's not racist after steel band refuses to play in front of 'Love Colour' sign and Farage stays away

"Nigel Farage's latest attempt to prove Ukip is not racist descended into farce today when a steel band refused to play at a bizarre 'Carnival' in Croydon.... as protesters clashed with party members and Mr Farage failed to turn up, musicians booked to play complained they did not know it involved Ukip - and packed up and left.... Ukip council candidate Winston McKenzie described Croydon as unsafe and 'a dump' ... Mr McKenzie said Mr Farage would not be attending because as a family man and party leader 'certain situations you have to avoid'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_McKenzie

Nigel Farage fails to show as Ukip 'carnival' ends with Winston McKenzie calling Croydon an "absolute dump"

"Winston McKenzie, the party’s Commonwealth spokesman and a candidate in South Norwood at Thursday’s local election, booked the band. ... when it became apparent that Mr Farage was not going to turn up, Mr McKenzie received a phone call from Ukip head office telling him “that’s it” and to stop talking to the press..."
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