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  #121  
Old 23.05.2014, 14:04
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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Are you comparing an election campaign to a referendum campaign?
No, its a comparison between two sets of propoganda which have a common theme. If you changed the logos and the colours, they could actually still work.

Lets not try to claim it isnt a fair comparison because of a technicality, when its actually a very fair comparison.
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  #122  
Old 23.05.2014, 14:43
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Meanwhile ...

Asked to explain the party's relatively poor performance in London on Radio 4, Evans said they had difficulty appealing to the "educated, cultured and young."

hmmm.... in my experience same applies to SVP/UDC here. I was born and bred here... and I remember the performances of the local UDC voters at school...not one went to secondary school, to Lycée or tertiary education- fact.

Last edited by Odile; 23.05.2014 at 14:58.
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  #123  
Old 23.05.2014, 14:57
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

So basically the SVP and UKIP appeal to thick old farts.
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  #124  
Old 23.05.2014, 14:58
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Not this one
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  #125  
Old 23.05.2014, 15:06
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

In fairness to UKIP, less educated people have born most of the brunt of the changes which mass immigration has brought to the United Kingdom, and I can't recall anybody making the effort to explain why immigration is good for the country.


If I still worked in factories or shops and lived somewhere like Leicester, Bradford or Boston, I could imagine seeing UKIP as the only party willing to take my concerns seriously.


It's about time the mainstream parties started putting some effort into their side of the debate. Shame it's taken the rise of UKIP to make them do it (although it's nice to see them take the wind out of the sails of the BNP - it's an ill wind and all that).
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  #126  
Old 23.05.2014, 15:34
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

A good point. Actually Leicester is very different to Bradford, or even Loughborough. The main influx of Indians was from Uganda when they were kicked out by Iddi Amin in early 70s. They came to Leicester because they were textile mills owners and managers- with their well educated families, doctors, judges, etc. They totally rejuvenated parts of Leicester that were literally falling down, then slowly moved to the suburbs where many now own large houses/mansions. They integrated well and fast, and were and still are very ambitious and brought real wealth and educated and skilled workers back into Leicester. Most people there will agree that they have been a real asset to the area.

Other areas have attracted large numbers of very poor and un-educated workers - and the integration has just not happened in the same way. Don't want to over-generalise- but again, Leicester immigration has been quite different in many ways.
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  #127  
Old 23.05.2014, 15:44
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

...but are the less educated living-on-benefits types stepping up to do the work that many of the the immigrants do to keep some areas of the UK ticking?

Example: text from Finnish friend standing in queue at Waitrose "woman behind me going on about what a nice place Ely was until all the immigrants came and made it so busy" as same woman plops her Fenland produce onto the conveyer belt...

Leaves the store and around the corner the chippy is overflowing with moms and prams scoffing mushy peas and chips (not cheap at £5/6 a serving). Some lads taking a break from the OTB shop just across...

While out in the fields there are teams (mixed gender) walking along in hot sun checking the crops and working their butts off for an honest living.

I'm afraid there are too many who would rather maintain their benefit status than work in the fields - and give a vote for UKIP. I have been in the UK most of the last 2 weeks (trying to finish a violin-making course). The propaganda through the mail-slot quite appalling, however much lower presence in Cambridge itself.

The flowchart in a previous post was quite clever actually.
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  #128  
Old 23.05.2014, 16:14
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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...but are the less educated living-on-benefits types stepping up to do the work that many of the the immigrants do to keep some areas of the UK ticking?

Example: text from Finnish friend standing in queue at Waitrose "woman behind me going on about what a nice place Ely was until all the immigrants came and made it so busy" as same woman plops her Fenland produce onto the conveyer belt...

Leaves the store and around the corner the chippy is overflowing with moms and prams scoffing mushy peas and chips (not cheap at £5/6 a serving). Some lads taking a break from the OTB shop just across...

While out in the fields there are teams (mixed gender) walking along in hot sun checking the crops and working their butts off for an honest living.

I'm afraid there are too many who would rather maintain their benefit status than work in the fields - and give a vote for UKIP. I have been in the UK most of the last 2 weeks (trying to finish a violin-making course). The propaganda through the mail-slot quite appalling, however much lower presence in Cambridge itself.

The flowchart in a previous post was quite clever actually.
For every example like this you will also find (British) people who desperately want to work who cannot find a job.

Amidst labelling UKIP people as old, uneducated, racist, fruitcakes, idiots, a passing fad and endless other offensive slurs, consider what the actual effect that has on the person's views. It seems to me to be a good example of what you would do as an immature teenager when turned down by the girl, instead of trying to win her back you would snigger to you're mates that she must be a lezzer anyway. Did it improve you're chances, or did it perhaps make her even more determined that you would never get within yards of her ?

By castigating the party you castigate the people that support it. Calling them a "passing fad" who will return to their traditional labour or tory paths at the General Election would only make me more determined to stick to my new vote if I were to support them (which I don't by the way, but thats unimportant).

And as DB says, the concerns, to them, are valid. Telling them they simply aren't and they are idiots really makes you wonder who is being the idiot in reality if the plan was to convert them back to a mainstream party.

Mike
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  #129  
Old 23.05.2014, 17:32
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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i think the british had a very different idea of europe than the french and germans. a cooperation of independent states, rather than an ever closer union leading to a federation of europe.

<snipped>
Not meaning to be pedantic, but in the preamble the signatories of the Treaty of Rome 1957 declare they are: "Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe,"
It's like line 2.
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  #130  
Old 23.05.2014, 17:37
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

As I understand, Ukip's biggest concern is EU immigration, they didn't make such a big fuss about China, for instance
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ures-show.html
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  #131  
Old 23.05.2014, 17:44
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

For Mikers - I understand the point you make, but how many of the people desperately wanting to work are a different labour force to the one targeted by UKIP campaign. I have met far more over 40's who have been made redundant from jobs requiring higher-ed qualifications or specialised skills, who can't afford to keep their homes etc. - driven out by greedy corporate managers giving themselves bonuses and the remaining workforce a double-load. Their situation is not going to be helped by a rather extreme party gaining votes through emotion.
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  #132  
Old 23.05.2014, 17:46
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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As I understand, Ukip's biggest concern is EU immigration, they didn't make such a big fuss about China, for instance
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ures-show.html
China and Russia are the good guys - they certainly are keeping the coffers of the private UK education "industry" nourished.
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  #133  
Old 23.05.2014, 17:47
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Agreed in many ways Mike. But how is this different from the concerns of Swiss people re the same + frontaliers- and the UDC/SVP?
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  #134  
Old 23.05.2014, 17:59
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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I disagree.

UKIP are just plain batshit crazy. There's really not much more to be said.

SVP do not appeal to basic instincts in the same way. They appeal to real issues and fears and sometimes paint them with a brush that's a bit too broad and caricaturesque, but the underlying issues are very real.



Have you considered that sometimes a scapegoat isn't a scapegoat but genuinely part of the problem. If the SVP blames the government and the political class and the media, this is sometimes scapegoating but sometimes its for things they really did.

Besides which, what about the other parties who scapegoat and scaremonger. The Greens watched superhero movies when they were kids and saw how radiation can make you into a green monster. They then studied arts at college but are nevertheless self-declared nuclear experts and are now scaremongering the rest of us that we're living in a tsunami zone and we'll all end up like that monster if we don't replace all nuclear plants by polluting lignite plants tomorrow. Where's the difference? Somehow that's a different type of scaremongering that's OK.
I agree with quite a few of your points, but at least I can hide if I've got green credentials or not. Someone who is targeted for their skin colour cannot, SVP tones in their campaign being plain racist at times, more than mere caricature. UKip does not use race but nationality, sexuality etc... Divisive, finger pointing and dangerous, as I said.
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  #135  
Old 23.05.2014, 18:02
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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A good point. Actually Leicester is very different to Bradford, or even Loughborough. The main influx of Indians was from Uganda when they were kicked out by Iddi Amin in early 70s. They came to Leicester because they were textile mills owners and managers- with their well educated families, doctors, judges, etc. They totally rejuvenated parts of Leicester that were literally falling down, then slowly moved to the suburbs where many now own large houses/mansions. They integrated well and fast, and were and still are very ambitious and brought real wealth and educated and skilled workers back into Leicester. Most people there will agree that they have been a real asset to the area.

Other areas have attracted large numbers of very poor and un-educated workers - and the integration has just not happened in the same way. Don't want to over-generalise- but again, Leicester immigration has been quite different in many ways.
And they brought BOBBY'S...that in itself is worth all immigrations!
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  #136  
Old 23.05.2014, 18:03
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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China and Russia are the good guys - they certainly are keeping the coffers of the private UK education "industry" nourished.
Right, all of them are coming to be privately educated in the U.K.

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Nonsense. Both are as bad as each other.
Probably, but at least the SVP are more inclusive in their anti-foreigners tirade, they don't let many people feel left out (if any). You can't take it very personally with them.
Just realised it looks like I'm defending them, lol. No, not at all.

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  #137  
Old 23.05.2014, 18:54
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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Right, all of them are coming to be privately educated in UK.
Many private (public?) UK schools have become dependent on the premium fees paid for their international programs, at the same time that numbers of UK boarders falls. I don't know so much about the background of the Chinese money, but certainly a lot (not all) of the Russian money is corrupt at source of origin. The schools aren't in the business of integrity though...
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  #138  
Old 23.05.2014, 19:05
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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Nope. They're making gains in number of councillors, but don't have control of any. In order to get an MP, they'd need a concentration of support in a single constituency rather than the widespread second-place support pattern we're seeing in these elections.

.
Of course, Farage is already looking ahead to the general election. He knows that the real challenge for UKIP is to convert support in the European Elections into seats at Westminster.

A year ago the big three political parties were laughing at the possibility, they're not laughing now!
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  #139  
Old 23.05.2014, 19:20
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

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Of course, Farage is already looking ahead to the general election. He knows that the real challenge for UKIP is to convert support in the European Elections into seats at Westminster.

A year ago the big three political parties were laughing at the possibility, they're not laughing now!

I seem to have read somewhere that UKip did not win a single council in the municipal council elections, but apparently their share of the votes have surged.
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  #140  
Old 23.05.2014, 19:27
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Re: Theoretical UKIP win impact on expats in CH?

Well, following results so far, seems England now has become a 4 party state- with a huge protest vote from the North mainly for UKIP. Quite a serious situation really- and all parties will be really on their toes for the General Elections next year.
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