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  #101  
Old 04.06.2013, 09:53
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Marton I don't rule that out at all, but Erdogan seems of a completely different mould to the average dictator, Mubarak, Gaddafi, Assad, etc. both in the way he assumed power and how he has acted in power. He doesn't seem to be holed up amassing his personal fortunes (though we only find out about these things afterwards don't we?), he seems to have been heading around the world striking deals with foreign governments for Turkey. Just last week he was in the US standing right next to Obama talking about new deals to extend trade and investment ties between the two countries. Doesn't sound very Islamist if you ask me.

When it comes to money, very few Islamists are will refuse it. That have been showed in many cases and countries.

Of course no leader is going to do exactly what you want in every issue, but if he covers the most important bases, then in my books that is what counts. And the facts say that Turkish GDP is 4 times what it was when he was first elected, exports are hugely up, more universities, etc. etc.

We can only watch and hope that the government and the protestors come to some sort of agreement, because the country doesn't deserve to go down the same path as places like Libya and Syria.

Nil, yes i did, but I've seen pictures from both sides of the conflict and they are as compelling as each other. I think it's hard to make a judgment based on a collage of 10 second clips, because you can't react in anyway to the footage except in the way the guy who compiled it wanted you to.

I think its fair to say that there are idiots both in the police and amongst the protestors (e.g. if you want I can put up pictures of the protestors who are having a beer party inside of a mosque in Istanbul. Or perhaps I should send you the link to the protestor who tweeted he wanted at least one hijabi dead by the end of the day).

Yes please, can you post them?


I don't doubt that there are sincere people on both sides of the conflict, and one can only hope that it is these who can sit down and bring this chaos to an end.

But I will also say that I have noticed that across the different media organisations, the BBC, Channel 4, Sky, Turkish reporters on al-Arabiya, they are all picking up on the fact that the protestors don't have any leadership, nor do they even have a list of specific demands that they could take to the government and say we want x, y and z issues addressed.
The protest wasn't suppose to exist in the first place. It was a small group of ecological activists trying to defend Gezi Park. The police brutality changed the tone and people were revolted of what they saw. So no, they weren't organized, they just came together and protested in support of the victims of this free violence from the police officers.

But now, there are organized, there are groups who are now creating a same movement for the same demands, same goals.
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  #102  
Old 04.06.2013, 09:58
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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I just watched the Channel 4 news report for the protests. I found it telling that none of the protestors could come up with a coherent response to the question, why don't you just vote him out, despite being repeatedly pressed to answer.

One guy threw his hands up in the air saying "C'mon! C'mon!" before running off into the night. And another lady gave a wishy-washy answer that was neither here or there and ended with an accusation that he is a dictator. Ermm no, he came to power through free and fair elections.

Perhaps these protestors are just a very vocal and destructive minority.

Perhaps they just don't get what democracy is.

Or is it the good old attitude of "democracy is great as long as our guy gets in"??? I can't believe that the protestors are actually appealing to the army to step in and disband the government, as if that is what normally happens in functioning civil societies??
The protesters are neither a majority nor a minority. They were simply protesting against something in particular. The problem arose due to the response of the authorities. None of those protesters could answer such questions correctly.

It is not them who may ask the army to take over, it is the officers themselves who may ask themselves. They may decide that Erdogan is acting against the constitution.
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  #103  
Old 04.06.2013, 10:33
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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The protesters are neither a majority nor a minority. They were simply protesting against something in particular. The problem arose due to the response of the authorities. None of those protesters could answer such questions correctly.

It is not them who may ask the army to take over, it is the officers themselves who may ask themselves. They may decide that Erdogan is acting against the constitution.
The problem is that Erdogan already put in prison many of the generals and officers.
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  #104  
Old 04.06.2013, 11:36
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Everyone with a map can see that Turkey is the ONLY possibility to join the Syrian rebels who hold the north west of Syria while Assad controls the south and east. Every supply HAS to go through Turkey... so for once can I not criticize Erdogan lightly: What is he supposed to do? Everyone can complain, but what is he really supposed to do:

Option one: Close the border, let the rebels lose the war and be responsible for the death of tens of thousands getting killed by the Assad regime.

Option two: Move in with the might of the Turkish military. Might sound funny to some, but the Turkish army has absolute top of the line equipment and training - they could end the Assad rule in less than a week. But then what? That's the sort of trap the Americans got themselves into in Iraq... Syria is equally multi-ethnic and on top of that full of Kurds, which is in itself a topic...

Option three: Stay passive - let the rebels pass through, but do not allow them to camp or do anything on Turkish soil. Retribute strongly against any aggression, no matter if it comes from Rebels or Assad's troops...
Frankly speaking I don't think option two is possible. I believe everyone is making the same mistake; Syria is not Iraq, Syria is heavily supported by Russia, China and Iran (link -- link -- link -- link). Attacking Syria of any kind will immediately be responded by these three countries.
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  #105  
Old 04.06.2013, 11:40
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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The problem is that Erdogan already put in prison many of the generals and officers.
58 generals/admirals and 140 officers to be more exact (link).
And the funny part is, these generals/admirals are being accused with planning a takeover of the government. In 1980, Kenan Evren took the government with 13 generals; 30 years later TSK cannot do it with 58???
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  #106  
Old 04.06.2013, 12:14
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Syria is heavily supported by Russia, China and Iran (link -- link -- link -- link). Attacking Syria of any kind will immediately be responded by these three countries.
No it would not. Syria is supported only by the three against any actions from the US - because all three have good reasons to not like the US "let's make war for a regime change" politics. Or as even your link put it: "The relationship between Iran and Syria is based on a unique convergence of interests. Iran and Syria resent the US influence in the Middle East". They don't love each other, they just share an enemy...

If the US were out of the picture would very few people have an issue with somebody finally stopping the massacres... some Arabs might fear that Turkey might get on some Ottoman power trip, but I doubt China or Russia would oppose a Turkey led peace mission - for all the wrong reasons as it would be the perfect example they could call on in the future if they have some beef with a neighbour country.
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  #107  
Old 04.06.2013, 19:17
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Re: Turkish Spring?

Seems the deputy PM has apologised to teh protestors.

Meanwhile Erdogan says "He rejects the accusations, says he respects all lifestyles and insists he is the servant not the master of the people."
Somehow strangely reminds of Gadaffi... the "Brother Leader"!!

I do not understand how Erdogan can say " he is the servant not the master of the people" & at the same time issue the contradictory statement "He rejects the accusations"??
Surely he meant "He rejects the accusations on behalf of the people??"
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  #108  
Old 04.06.2013, 20:27
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Re: Turkish Spring?

Got that one from a friend,
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  #109  
Old 04.06.2013, 22:10
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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The problem is that Erdogan already put in prison many of the generals and officers.
Such things were done by Crown Regent Abdulilah of Iraq but in 1958, General Abdel Karim Kassem saw his chance and acted.

King Farouk of Egypt in about 1950 fired the Chief Instructor of a military academy and replaced him with a well reputed young colonel. The name of that colonel was Gamal Abdel Nasser
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  #110  
Old 04.06.2013, 22:23
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Seems the deputy PM has apologised to teh protestors.

Meanwhile Erdogan says "He rejects the accusations, says he respects all lifestyles and insists he is the servant not the master of the people."
Somehow strangely reminds of Gadaffi... the "Brother Leader"!!

I do not understand how Erdogan can say " he is the servant not the master of the people" & at the same time issue the contradictory statement "He rejects the accusations"??
Surely he meant "He rejects the accusations on behalf of the people??"

Erdogan claims the demonstrations are stoked by the opposition party, and are a minority of the population. He claims he can raise a demonstration 10 times larger than what you see now.

Not a particularly bright statement under these circumstances. He basically expressed the ability and willingness to divide the country by his power rather resolve issues in unity. He's basically taken on a "Us" vs "Them" mentality. Can one assume Erdogan sees Islamists as a different kind of Turk as Secularists?
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  #111  
Old 04.06.2013, 22:32
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Such things were done by Crown Regent Abdulilah of Iraq but in 1958, General Abdel Karim Kassem saw his chance and acted.

King Farouk of Egypt in about 1950 fired the Chief Instructor of a military academy and replaced him with a well reputed young colonel. The name of that colonel was Gamal Abdel Nasser
True. But Nasser was more of a dictator until Sadat took his place.
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  #112  
Old 04.06.2013, 22:33
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Erdogan claims the demonstrations are stoked by the opposition party, and are a minority of the population. He claims he can raise a demonstration 10 times larger than what you see now.

Not a particularly bright statement under these circumstances. He basically expressed the ability and willingness to divide the country by his power rather resolve issues in unity. He's basically taken on a "Us" vs "Them" mentality. Can one assume Erdogan sees Islamists as a different kind of Turk as Secularists?
Yes.

But he might hit a wall..
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  #113  
Old 04.06.2013, 22:58
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Erdogan claims the demonstrations are stoked by the opposition party, and are a minority of the population. He claims he can raise a demonstration 10 times larger than what you see now.

Not a particularly bright statement under these circumstances. He basically expressed the ability and willingness to divide the country by his power rather resolve issues in unity. He's basically taken on a "Us" vs "Them" mentality. Can one assume Erdogan sees Islamists as a different kind of Turk as Secularists?
In the last election hiz party got circa fifty prrcent of the vote so he could expecy to raise a demo of two or three times but ten times is bravado; unless he plans to follow the usual ME practice of bussing in paid supporters
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  #114  
Old 05.06.2013, 00:09
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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True. But Nasser was more of a dictator until Sadat took his place.
Well, you have to see that it was Nasser, who against the vote of his comrades allowed Farouk to get out, instead of being executed. Sadat in the late 40ies, early 50ies was far stricter than Nasser. Do not forget that Egypt is more centralized than France, a fact which has caught such liberal minds as Nasser, Sadat and Murbarak but also Mursi.

Originally, Sadat was the leader of the Free Officers but then had to flee from police, and so Nasser took over. Amazing btw. is that the Free Officers had a kind of "associate member", a chap from the French embassy, Maurice Couve de Murville
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  #115  
Old 05.06.2013, 10:36
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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  #116  
Old 05.06.2013, 13:12
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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The problem is that Erdogan already put in prison many of the generals and officers.
I imagine this did not make him popular with the military?
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Old 05.06.2013, 14:22
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Well this has got nothing to do with the headscarf issue actually. This is about not being listened, not being able to publicly tell your opinions, issues not being debated but imposed upon people, people sentenced because there is no freedom of speech. Taking the 50% of the votes doesnt mean that you can ignore the other 50% and do just whatever you want. In a true democracy people can talk and have the right to protest. It all started when people protested peacefully against the teardown of a small park and build up of a shopping mall instead. Police raided the park two mornings consecutively, burned down protesters tents and used excessive violence and tear gas. If you look at the amount of tear gas used in Turkey at the moment you would be amazed. Istiklal street was totally covered with tear gas capsules. People suffered dramatically. Before this park it was a historic beautiful cinema that was torn down in Beyoglu, again to build a shopping mall. People protested for months and nobody listened and over the last protests there was again police violence. You can not constantly push people, there are consequences in the end. Coming back to headscarf, believe me most of the people who protested in Turkey nowadays has no issues with headscarf and even supported that it can be worn freely in universities.
I totally agree. I lived there for some years and I have friends that I'm in contact with. You can see the pictures of many headscarfed women protesters on internet and the men who are praying in the park during the protests. The fact that many people who voted for Erdogan before are also on the streets because they are questioning the restrictive actions of Erdogan. Turkish people does not want a Prime Minister who behaves as a King. They want to have respect from Erdogan and they want to be counted. They want to be involved in important decisions by voting in a referandum, they want Erdogan to be sensitive to environment. Please check this article here which I came across recently: http://www.six2nine.net/?p=2348

Last edited by Züricher; 05.06.2013 at 16:24.
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  #118  
Old 05.06.2013, 16:51
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Re: Turkish Spring?

According to today's papers there are now over 4,000 injured & 2 dead during these protests; amazing how this protest has grown & evolved.
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  #119  
Old 05.06.2013, 20:30
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Re: Turkish Spring?

There is a report that 29 persons have been arrested for having twitted.

:confused

Edit: here is a link

CBC.ca

Last edited by Nil; 05.06.2013 at 20:47.
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  #120  
Old 05.06.2013, 21:12
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Re: Turkish Spring?

Demands of the protesters of #OccupyGezi

English version of today's statement.
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