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  #21  
Old 07.06.2013, 10:44
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Given the volume of phone conversations it is obviously monitored by computer algorithms. There is no secret agent in a dark bunker listening to your conversations. They are quite obviously scanning for key words.
See a few posts up, where it's stated that this particular furor has zero, zippity, nada to do with the content of the conversations.
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  #22  
Old 07.06.2013, 10:50
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

Well the follow up to this Verizon story today is that the US Govt allegedly has direct access to the servers of some of the biggest names on the internet: Google, Facebook, Apple, Yahoo, Skype, Microsoft. I wonder if anyone has actually seen the type of information that FB capture about you and store forever. Every click, every post, every picture, every like, every friend and defriend, every profile you have ever viewed, and how often, etc.

Are people really comfortable with this level of government intrusion?

Two other points:

1) Lets accept for the sake of argument that "you've got nothing to worry about if you're doing nothing wrong."

But what if there is corruption at the heart of government? What if there are secret programs being run that are against the law? How can you safely leak such information (which would undoubtedly be in the public interest) without the full force of the government coming down on you, your family and your loved ones? To use a real example, read the story of John Kiriakou.

2) Once there are backdoors built into systems for the government to carry out their spying, you are basically broadcasting to people like the Chinese and Russians "hey you can get real time info from our systems, and this is where you need to focus your hacking." And such a thing has already happened at least once, just a couple of years ago, when the Chinese accessed a part of Google's systems that stores all of the USG's FISA surveillance orders to the company. So chances are that if the USG asked for surveillance access to Phos's data, not only is it only the USG and Google who know about the order, its now also the Chinese. Of course Phos himself would be oblivious to the fact.
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  #23  
Old 07.06.2013, 10:56
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

I am surprised at how nonchalant some people here are about this program. Of course there is nothing to fear now if you are not doing anything wrong. However, the fact that such an overwhelming infrastructure is being built up should be a massive controversy. Having the government know everything you do will be a problem once you start to lose some of the freedoms that you took for granted...

Want to protest something that the government favors. They now can round you up before you set foot out the house.

You want to criticize the government as you are allowed to under the 1st amendment...good luck with that....see the current story on the targeting of AP reporters.

What I am saying here is that all the rights you are now taking for granted, you will not be able to count on them if the gov is allowed to wield such a powerfool tool
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Old 07.06.2013, 11:09
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

To add to Kiwiguy, you also have to trust that this massive amount of information is "protected" by the government that collects it. Otherwise, as others have said, there's possibly greater danger from hackers/other governments using or misusing the information.

I agree there's probably not a shadowy room full of dudes and that computers are doing a lot of the work. But is that really any better? Don't you wind up with tons and tons of absolutely useless data that has to be stored somewhere? Who protects those servers? Where do you locate them to avoid natural disasters or targeted attacks? How long do you keep the information?

Plenty of questions, few answers.
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  #25  
Old 07.06.2013, 11:19
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

If you guys are on Twitter, I think the person to follow today is @ioerror
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  #26  
Old 07.06.2013, 12:13
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

Way to go, Obama!

January 2008:
Obama: No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me
The front-running Democrat in the New Hampshire primary makes the promise in one last stump speech at an election day rally with the Facebook generation.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9845595-7.html
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  #27  
Old 07.06.2013, 12:30
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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....
The idea is simple: Create a massive database, analyse known cases of terrorists and how they behaved... and then look for people who follow the same pattern. One call to the wrong number does not make a pattern. But if you happen to call the same pizza delivery with a similar frequency than the Boston bomber...
.....
They got a direct tip from the Russians about the Boston bomber and still they didn't stop the attack. These is no way looking for patterns in the massive database will help finding terrorists
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  #28  
Old 07.06.2013, 13:22
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Well the follow up to this Verizon story today is that the US Govt allegedly has direct access to the servers of some of the biggest names on the internet: Google, Facebook, Apple, Yahoo, Skype, Microsoft. I wonder if anyone has actually seen the type of information that FB capture about you and store forever. Every click, every post, every picture, every like, every friend and defriend, every profile you have ever viewed, and how often, etc.

Are people really comfortable with this level of government intrusion?

Two other points:

1) Lets accept for the sake of argument that "you've got nothing to worry about if you're doing nothing wrong."

But what if there is corruption at the heart of government? What if there are secret programs being run that are against the law? How can you safely leak such information (which would undoubtedly be in the public interest) without the full force of the government coming down on you, your family and your loved ones? To use a real example, read the story of John Kiriakou.

2) Once there are backdoors built into systems for the government to carry out their spying, you are basically broadcasting to people like the Chinese and Russians "hey you can get real time info from our systems, and this is where you need to focus your hacking." And such a thing has already happened at least once, just a couple of years ago, when the Chinese accessed a part of Google's systems that stores all of the USG's FISA surveillance orders to the company. So chances are that if the USG asked for surveillance access to Phos's data, not only is it only the USG and Google who know about the order, its now also the Chinese. Of course Phos himself would be oblivious to the fact.
About ""you've got nothing to worry about if you're doing nothing wrong."

Well in today's complex world it is hard to know if you are doing something wrong.

Also they are not only collecting internal US calls; I quote ""It took a Fisa court order to collect on foreigners overseas who were communicating with other foreigners overseas simply because the government was collecting off a wire in the United States."
Now FISA court order is no longer required "to collect on foreigners overseas communicating with other foreigners overseas "
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  #29  
Old 10.06.2013, 08:56
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

NSA whistleblower reveals his identity, explains his motives:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...nce?CMP=twt_gu

29-year old Edward Snowden is a former defense contractor who worked for the NSA and has fled to Hong Kong (which is ironic -- it used to be the US where people from the communist states were going for more freedom )
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Old 10.06.2013, 09:19
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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I am surprised at how nonchalant some people here are about this program. Of course there is nothing to fear now if you are not doing anything wrong. However, the fact that such an overwhelming infrastructure is being built up should be a massive controversy. Having the government know everything you do will be a problem once you start to lose some of the freedoms that you took for granted...

Want to protest something that the government favors. They now can round you up before you set foot out the house.

You want to criticize the government as you are allowed to under the 1st amendment...good luck with that....see the current story on the targeting of AP reporters.

What I am saying here is that all the rights you are now taking for granted, you will not be able to count on them if the gov is allowed to wield such a powerfool tool
Straw man argument.

There is so much irrational nonsense expressed on subjects like this, most of which (IMO) is rooted in gaping at too many Hollywood thrillers where CIA agents follow our every move on banks of monitors.

We know why there is large scale monitoring of telephone traffic at a meta level, and it is nothing to do with ordinary individuals making ordinary calls. The intelligence services need to monitor traffic to and from known certain numbers and addresses and try to build a picture of terrorist or serious organised crime networks. This has been going on for many years, certainly since the 1980s, and is responsible for the prevention and detection of major attacks, and the disruption of organised crime networks.

From this, people let their imagination run riot. They ask: "What next? Today it's just global terrorism; tomorrow it will be me and my views on gay marriage or Medicaid. The government won't stop until they control us all..."

BZZZT!! Challenge!

No, it does not follow that this is that sort of slippery slope. It's a silly idea. Alarmist, sensationalist, laughable.

As for why governments, police and intelligence authorities are not more public about exactly how and who they are monitoring....? Hmmm. Think about it for a moment.
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  #31  
Old 10.06.2013, 09:24
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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About ""you've got nothing to worry about if you're doing nothing wrong."

Well in today's complex world it is hard to know if you are doing something wrong.
Is it? Can you give me an example?
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  #32  
Old 10.06.2013, 09:25
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

The NSA/ CIA whisteblower used to work in Geneva for the CIA. Here is an excerpt from an article in today's Guardian on one incident there:

"By 2007, the CIA stationed him with diplomatic cover in Geneva, Switzerland. His responsibility for maintaining computer network security meant he had clearance to access a wide array of classified documents. That access, along with the almost three years he spent around CIA officers, led him to begin seriously questioning the rightness of what he saw.

He described as formative an incident in which he claimed CIA operatives were attempting to recruit a Swiss banker to obtain secret banking information. Snowden said they achieved this by purposely getting the banker drunk and encouraging him to drive home in his car. When the banker was arrested for drunk driving, the undercover agent seeking to befriend him offered to help, and a bond was formed that led to successful recruitment.

"Much of what I saw in Geneva really disillusioned me about how my government functions and what its impact is in the world," he says. "I realised that I was part of something that was doing far more harm than good." "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...r-surveillance
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  #33  
Old 10.06.2013, 09:52
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

Many of you have already seen this 2009 Blick article which mentions that the CIA moved its European headquarters from Germany to Switzerland in the mid-2000s and has been expanding it. The CIA prefers Switzerland because of the "discretion":

http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/die...rn-id2886.html
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  #34  
Old 10.06.2013, 10:05
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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"Much of what I saw in Geneva really disillusioned me about how my government functions and what its impact is in the world," he says. "I realised that I was part of something that was doing far more harm than good." "
He must have been to some glocals drinks...
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  #35  
Old 10.06.2013, 10:14
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Many of you have already seen this 2009 Blick article which mentions that the CIA moved its European headquarters from Germany to Switzerland in the mid-2000s and has been expanding it. The CIA prefers Switzerland because of the "discretion"
Which really makes you wonder why the Swiss Government is currently being so cowardly in negotiations with the US over access to Swiss bank information. Widmer-Schlumpf and her Finance Department might as well just give Washington DC the keys to her apartment and all the bank's front doors. There's being bullied and caving in and then there's playing smart and hitting your opponent where it hurts by using equally dirty tactics to get what you want.

The Americans don't play by rules, they make them up as they go along to suit their purposes. And if you voice an alternative opinion you become a victim of the very democratic principles that you are trying to uphold. Very Orwellian.

I applaud Edward Snowden. The man has ethics, principles and a spine made of better morals than those he served. I hope that his brave stance is embraced by others in the CIA whose true dreams were to make the world a better place, not by just blindly following orders.
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  #36  
Old 10.06.2013, 10:27
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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The Americans don't play by rules, they make them up as they go along to suit their purposes. And if you voice an alternative opinion you become a victim of the very democratic principles that you are trying to uphold. Very Orwellian.
And that's in essence why it sucks to be Obama today... being on a visit in Beijing right now and having on his agenda to complain about all those Chinese hackers trying to spy on the US companies and stuff...
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  #37  
Old 10.06.2013, 10:40
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Straw man argument.

There is so much irrational nonsense expressed on subjects like this, most of which (IMO) is rooted in gaping at too many Hollywood thrillers where CIA agents follow our every move on banks of monitors.

We know why there is large scale monitoring of telephone traffic at a meta level, and it is nothing to do with ordinary individuals making ordinary calls. The intelligence services need to monitor traffic to and from known certain numbers and addresses and try to build a picture of terrorist or serious organised crime networks. This has been going on for many years, certainly since the 1980s, and is responsible for the prevention and detection of major attacks, and the disruption of organised crime networks.

From this, people let their imagination run riot. They ask: "What next? Today it's just global terrorism; tomorrow it will be me and my views on gay marriage or Medicaid. The government won't stop until they control us all..."

BZZZT!! Challenge!

No, it does not follow that this is that sort of slippery slope. It's a silly idea. Alarmist, sensationalist, laughable.

As for why governments, police and intelligence authorities are not more public about exactly how and who they are monitoring....? Hmmm. Think about it for a moment.
Really, why A secret court issues a secret order that running a secret program which collects information on all people in the US is legal and necessary. Why would anybody object?

I hope that Edward Snowden would not be extradited to the US...
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  #38  
Old 10.06.2013, 10:46
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

I watched the videos, and I have to say something is a bit odd. It's not a smooth interview. There are editing cuts in weird places, etc. Snowden has shifty eyes. He speaks well and sounds informed, but something still does not add up for me. Anyone else notice the shifty eyes?
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  #39  
Old 10.06.2013, 11:00
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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I am surprised at how nonchalant some people here are about this program. Of course there is nothing to fear now if you are not doing anything wrong. However, the fact that such an overwhelming infrastructure is being built up should be a massive controversy. Having the government know everything you do will be a problem once you start to lose some of the freedoms that you took for granted...

Want to protest something that the government favors. They now can round you up before you set foot out the house.

You want to criticize the government as you are allowed to under the 1st amendment...good luck with that....see the current story on the targeting of AP reporters.

What I am saying here is that all the rights you are now taking for granted, you will not be able to count on them if the gov is allowed to wield such a powerfool tool
I love how people are saying ''Yeah Government, Spy, spy Away! I love you, Invade my privacy''.

Then a suit knocks on the door, ''your under arrest''. You ask what for, they say two words, ''Patriot Act'' thanks to your FB post which read, ''I like hamas'', because you spelt Hummus wrong.

Just like the gas price theory, Corporations (aka US government) push and push till you get used to $2, then $3, then $4 etc.. All of a sudden its at $5 and your ok because the build up was slow.

Dont get me started on how a rapist gets 10x less severe sentence versus a hacktivist.

The government thinks for us, and it seems the mass loves and believes this method of government is best.
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Old 10.06.2013, 11:01
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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BZZZT!! Challenge!

No, it does not follow that this is that sort of slippery slope. It's a silly idea. Alarmist, sensationalist, laughable.
.
HA-HA!!!!! That's a knee slapper right there. It gets even funnier once you find out that they have arrested Marines for disagreeing with the war(s), signed a law that allows the gov't to arrest anyone and imprision them for as long as they please without seeing a lawyer or going to trial. Its hilarious, I mean, why make these laws if your never going to use them
Free press? Only if it follows our agenda
Free speech? Only if it follows our agenda
Habeous Corpus? What's that?



Wait, let's make it even funnier.
Add voter fraud and rigged elections to the list just to make sure your milk comes out your nose.

Last edited by California Dreamer; 10.06.2013 at 11:13.
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