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  #61  
Old 10.06.2013, 22:14
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Well the follow up to this Verizon story today is that the US Govt allegedly has direct access to the servers of some of the biggest names on the internet: Google, Facebook, Apple, Yahoo, Skype, Microsoft. I wonder if anyone has actually seen the type of information that FB capture about you and store forever. Every click, every post, every picture, every like, every friend and defriend, every profile you have ever viewed, and how often, etc.
They don't have direct access, but the companies involved don't quite refuse requests for information, either. Besides, given the access to the exchanges, the kind of data they'll be looking for is site-specific, i.e. account information, as opposed to data that they can get without a request.


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Are people really comfortable with this level of government intrusion?

Two other points:
[...]
2) Once there are backdoors built into systems for the government to carry out their spying, you are basically broadcasting to people like the Chinese and Russians "hey you can get real time info from our systems, and this is where you need to focus your hacking." And such a thing has already happened at least once, just a couple of years ago, when the Chinese accessed a part of Google's systems that stores all of the USG's FISA surveillance orders to the company. So chances are that if the USG asked for surveillance access to Phos's data, not only is it only the USG and Google who know about the order, its now also the Chinese. Of course Phos himself would be oblivious to the fact.
Remember who built the internet....BBN was a government contractor when they built the first routers. The fact that it has become ubiquitous shouldn't ever leave you thinking that the US government simply released it from their control completely and forever. You don't need backdoors when you own the exchanges through which all network traffic passes.
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  #62  
Old 11.06.2013, 00:38
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

Methinks that the question isn't about a government spying on it's citizens per-se, but the fear that the government is not spying to protect the people but spying to protect itself.
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  #63  
Old 11.06.2013, 03:51
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Methinks that the question isn't about a government spying on it's citizens per-se, but the fear that the government is not spying to protect the people but spying to protect itself.
The would require a level of self-awareness that I don't think the US government actually possesses. The point about the Boston bombers was a very valid point as, given the Russians warned intelligence agencies about the parties involved, if they had an agency capable of fully pulling the data together then the bombing would have likely not have happened. Merely having access to the data doesn't mean much as they've had that for as long as I've been involved with computers (early 80s). No, having the resources to analyse all that data is really the important question.

Never assume that just because they can that they are smart enough to do. Give it a few years though....I'm sure the spin machine will make this poor, stupid 29yo whistleblower who thinks he's a hero a scarecrow for those who might think about doing the same and little will change. But, one day, just like the day I remember seeing the very first ad on what was then the 'internet' and being outraged, progress comes whether you like it or not as someone has to pay and, at least with the gub'mint, someone also has to pay. Privacy isn't convenient and, as such, you've pretty much agreed that all your data belong to them. I think I'm one of about 200 people on planet earth who doesn't actually have accounts on any of the services mentioned. That's not an accident.
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  #64  
Old 11.06.2013, 08:54
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

Oh dear, the whistle blower is missing! Has he been seen with 4 large men in a van? Will he join Assange in the Venezuelan embassy?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22850901
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  #65  
Old 11.06.2013, 09:07
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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The would require a level of self-awareness that I don't think the US government actually possesses.
......
The level of self-awareness of the "US government" is probably the same as the level of self-awareness of the "non-government-rest-of-us". Millions of decisions are taken by thousands of ordinary government people, and mostly the decisions are taken to serve their personal needs.

What I don't like with this collection of everybody's data is not that "the government" could get to your private information and use it against you. At a certain level the government can get to any information about you anyway if they need to. And at a certain level they don't even need to get any information to act against you, they can do this anyway if they want. But collecting the data on everybody and giving the access to that data to thousands of small government people who would not have access to such information otherwise, this is what I don't like.
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  #66  
Old 11.06.2013, 09:40
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Its actually not so bad, if you haven't done anything wrong. I don't see any personal liberties hampered by this, other than the liberty to cause some damage to country. We still have due process, and none of that data can be used in court for prosecution. The NSA uses it to collect data to pull up when they need it. For National Security purposes, I'm glad they do it. But if you are doing some wrong, then it is bad.. very, very bad.
Another successful brainwash after the 9/11 attacks, sorry I mean the 9/11 plot.
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  #67  
Old 11.06.2013, 09:44
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Oh dear, the whistle blower is missing! Has he been seen with 4 large men in a van? Will he join Assange in the Venezuelan embassy?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22850901
As soon as I heard his story on the news, I said he had max 2 months unless he finds a well hidden cave to hide in
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  #68  
Old 11.06.2013, 09:57
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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As soon as I heard his story on the news, I said he had max 2 months unless he finds a well hidden cave to hide in
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However an opinion poll commissioned by the Washington Post suggests a majority of Americans think government monitoring of phone records is acceptable if the aim is to fight terrorism.
apparently 9/11 was a successful government initiative.
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  #69  
Old 11.06.2013, 11:07
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

Are people imagining the US government would even be interested in the lurid details of their private lives. Come on, do you really think the US Gov even cares that much about you, your dirty little secrets and perversions? That would only happen if you become a threat, maybe.

The biggest area of potential abuse is economic - getting a jump start on economic decisions and financial transactions. One can rig the free market system with this level of transparency.


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Yes, the actual voice data is captured by Echelon.... What they don't get off the satellites, they can get off the Exchanges. My only surprise in all this is why it surprises anyone and why Europeans think their governments are immune (Hello, Menwith Hill....).

ECHELON captures the raw data, and PRISM provides the time stamp index to the the raw data. So with PRISM, they can key in conversations captured with ECHELON to information stored in other database.

ECHELON is legal as long as the US Gov does not spy on its own citizens. To get around it, they allow Australia or the UK to spy on US Citizens, and US Intelligence buys the data from Australia or the UK.

Signal Intelligence has been practiced since WWII. Switzerland eavesdrops on signal data.
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Old 11.06.2013, 11:29
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Are people imagining the US government would even be interested in the lurid details of their private lives. Come on, do you really think the US Gov even cares that much about you, your dirty little secrets and perversions?
Apparently they are. For one single purpose: If they have to, they can bring you down. Whether they bring you down for some made up sex offence (see Wikileaks founder) or by destroying your credibility (see IMF guy - someone somehow knew he had a weakness for particular - may I say quite ugly - type of woman).

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That would only happen if you become a threat, maybe.
The point is you can NEVER know what information about you may be used and how. We ALL and I mean ALL have a skeleton(of some type) in our closets. As it has been said many times over Mr Average breaks the law at least once a day.

So while the statement "law abiding citizens have nothing to fear about" is indeed true, we must not forget that there is NOT A SINGLE law abiding citizen in the world.
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  #71  
Old 11.06.2013, 11:31
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

To Phos:

Faulk says he and others in his section of the NSA facility at Fort Gordon routinely shared salacious or tantalizing phone calls that had been intercepted, alerting office mates to certain time codes of "cuts" that were available on each operator's computer.

"Hey, check this out," Faulk says he would be told, "there's good phone sex or there's some pillow talk, pull up this call, it's really funny, go check it out. It would be some colonel making pillow talk and we would say, 'Wow, this was crazy'," Faulk told ABC News.

Faulk said he joined in to listen, and talk about it during breaks in Back Hall's "smoke pit," but ended up feeling badly about his actions.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/...
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  #72  
Old 11.06.2013, 11:50
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

You do realize that none of this can be admitted in court as evidence without a warrant. Sure, you can talk about secret police and secret courts, but they can do that now without any recordings of any kind.

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Faulk says he and others in his section of the NSA facility at Fort Gordon routinely shared salacious or tantalizing phone calls that had been intercepted, alerting office mates to certain time codes of "cuts" that were available on each operator's computer.

"Hey, check this out," Faulk says he would be told, "there's good phone sex or there's some pillow talk, pull up this call, it's really funny, go check it out. It would be some colonel making pillow talk and we would say, 'Wow, this was crazy'," Faulk told ABC News.
I think it would be a treasure trove of entertainment. It would be fun to cull through all that data.

Last edited by Phos; 11.06.2013 at 12:01.
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  #73  
Old 11.06.2013, 13:04
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

All of you are now on the watch list. Disclosing anymore information from your knowledge on the inner workings of the U.S gov't will land you on the no fly list, or hauled away to some secret prison for the rest of your pathetic life, never to be heard from again.


Repeat after me.
God Bless America.......
USA, USA, USA!
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  #74  
Old 11.06.2013, 13:37
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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All of you are now on the watch list. Disclosing anymore information from your knowledge on the inner workings of the U.S gov't will land you on the no fly list, or hauled away to some secret prison for the rest of your pathetic life, never to be heard from again.


Repeat after me.
God Bless America.......
USA, USA, USA!
About "hauled away to some secret prison for the rest of your pathetic life" at least I will not have the worry about managing on my pension
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  #75  
Old 11.06.2013, 13:40
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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The court order

Article link

Wow! Always suspected this was the case, but now its in the open and undeniable. Funny thing is that just 2 weeks ago I watched a clip of the head of the NSA denying to congress that the NSA was collecting phone records wholesale.

What do you guys think?

For me, it reinforces my view that since 9/11 draconian laws have been drafted and civil liberties eroded in the name of the War on Terror, and while publicly government would always say these laws target only "the worst of the worst" and al-Qaeda, and other militant groups, what we have seen though is that the laws have been turned around and used against the general populations of their own countries!

PS. I am pretty sure that the US Govt. is not alone in gathering this sort of information. They're just the first to be caught..
no kidding
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  #76  
Old 11.06.2013, 13:49
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Yes, but that is some completely different topic. Those are automatic recordings of calls... they do that since the 1970s. In this case nobody actually listens what you were saying - the only data is the RECORD of the call.

"Under the terms of the blanket order, the numbers of both parties on a call are handed over, as is location data, call duration, unique identifiers, and the time and duration of all calls. The contents of the conversation itself are not covered."

The idea is simple: Create a massive database, analyse known cases of terrorists and how they behaved... and then look for people who follow the same pattern. One call to the wrong number does not make a pattern. But if you happen to call the same pizza delivery with a similar frequency than the Boston bomber...

This is fairly complex work and I bet they will have hundreds of false positives... and that would be the right question to ask: What happens if their research identifies a potential candidate? What do they check, how do they do it?

The key is that this data collection is just the entry point - the worse potential right infringements come in the next step.
Just like on my phone bill
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Old 11.06.2013, 14:06
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

You only have to worry when some voice with, georgian US accent, interrupt your call asking how to spell "chuchichaeschtli "
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  #78  
Old 11.06.2013, 14:54
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

Don't forget to change your Facebook security settings:
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  #79  
Old 11.06.2013, 16:42
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

Edward Snowden might find asylum in China or Russia. Any such deal would require him to collaborate with them, and reveal information on how they can spy on the US and apply it to their own people. There, he can learn how much fairer they are with such things.

Edward Snowden is a traitor to his country, and can be tried for treason. He's a rat.
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Old 11.06.2013, 16:50
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Edward Snowden is a traitor to his country, and can be tried for treason. He's a rat.
Certainly depends on ones point of view.. And good of you to state that online, it will make your prism file look so much better, should a review prove necessary
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