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  #81  
Old 11.06.2013, 16:53
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Certainly depends on ones point of view.
Its not at all a point of view, rather by definition of law.

I love the NSA.
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Old 11.06.2013, 17:16
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

Apparently a petition has been posted on the White House website, encouraging Obama to pardon Snowden, either immediately or in the future, based on anything he may have done wrong but with good intentions so therefore is not so wrong after all. Who wants to bet THAT list of folks gets a little extra scrutiny in the coming days?
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  #83  
Old 11.06.2013, 17:57
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Apparently a petition has been posted on the White House website, encouraging Obama to pardon Snowden, either immediately or in the future, based on anything he may have done wrong but with good intentions so therefore is not so wrong after all. Who wants to bet THAT list of folks gets a little extra scrutiny in the coming days?

Who would be interested in a list of naive people? Snowden can cause severe damage to the US, and hurt US citizens. If he sells his secrets, he could easily make it to the top traitors in US history.
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  #84  
Old 11.06.2013, 18:22
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Who would be interested in a list of naive people? Snowden can cause severe damage to the US, and hurt US citizens. If he sells his secrets, he could easily make it to the top traitors in US history.

He already said that wasn't his motivation. He said that if he wanted, he could have pulled up a list of CIA stations around the world, and a listing of undercover CIA agents and passed them onto the Chinese or Russians. But he didn't. All he has done is expose how pervasive government intrusion is, and how some very large corporations willingly (or unwillingly) are colluding with them.

Not being American I haven't previously paid much attention to the US constitution, but having looked at it a bit more closely I think that the Founding Father chaps had the right idea when it came to curbing the excesses of government, and defining the basic rights of their people.

When I read the various opinion pieces on this story it seems to me that the actions of Snowden are much more in accord with the American Constitution than all of these Senators in Congress blowing hot air yelling treason! espionage! criminal!
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  #85  
Old 11.06.2013, 18:48
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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He already said that wasn't his motivation. He said that if he wanted, he could have pulled up a list of CIA stations around the world, and a listing of undercover CIA agents and passed them onto the Chinese or Russians. But he didn't. All he has done is expose how pervasive government intrusion is, and how some very large corporations willingly (or unwillingly) are colluding with them.

Not being American I haven't previously paid much attention to the US constitution, but having looked at it a bit more closely I think that the Founding Father chaps had the right idea when it came to curbing the excesses of government, and defining the basic rights of their people.

When I read the various opinion pieces on this story it seems to me that the actions of Snowden are much more in accord with the American Constitution than all of these Senators in Congress blowing hot air yelling treason! espionage! criminal!
What he says publicly is one thing, what he actually does is a different matter that will be watched closely.

The US Constitution is meant to curb government tyranny against its people. The 4th amendment is a safeguard against unreasonable search and seizure. But we haven't seen this used for that purpose, only conjectures that it can be. The NSA only concerns itself with National Security, particularly foreign and domestic threats. While they can pull up historical phone conversations, we haven't seen it used for purposes outside of their charter.

What Snowden has done is NOT in accord with the Constitution. It is in betrayal of his National Security clearance. While his public explanation seems well intentioned, it is damaging to the country, and can be even more damaging if he were to pass it on to enemies. It can already be considered treason. If he passes on information to enemies, it can be considered espionage.

In a similar case, Julius and Ethel Rosenthal felt the US held an undue advantage over the USSR with the technology to build atomic bombs, so they passed on the technology to the USSR. They were tried and executed for espionage in the 1950s.
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  #86  
Old 22.06.2013, 13:52
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

Sign the petition to pardon Snowden

"Pardon Edward Snowden
Edward Snowden is a national hero and should be immediately issued a a full, free, and absolute pardon for any crimes he has committed or may have committed related to blowing the whistle on secret NSA surveillance programs."

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...owden/Dp03vGYD


By the way, he is charged with espionage http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...espionage?lite
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  #87  
Old 22.06.2013, 15:06
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

Pardon him? Even if that were possible, why should he be? I tend to agree that he has damaged the NSA programmes he has released classified documents on. I suspect the NSA will be re-evaluating who gets what information rather soon. When you take on work like that, you agree to not release the information. Most of us who work in the bowels of technology know, if not by firsthand knowledge then by tacit understanding, that this has been happening for decades. Non-techies put this sort of stuff into movies that make light of it and put it into the realm of the tinfoil hats but, sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

And it's not just the USA, it's every government on the planet, e.g. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ju...unications-nsa and http://yle.fi/uutiset/supo_wants_exp...powers/6697667

All of this hubbub and we still haven't gotten to find out who killed JFK. Why can't we get a contractor to release /that/ information as that would really be a firecracker.
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  #88  
Old 22.06.2013, 17:19
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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It is in betrayal of his National Security clearance. While his public explanation seems well intentioned, it is damaging to the country, and can be even more damaging if he were to pass it on to enemies. It can already be considered treason. If he passes on information to enemies, it can be considered espionage.
Your choice of terms speaks volumes.

Why would you choose 'betrayal' instead of, say, 'breach of contract'?

'Treason', as a legal term, has a very specific definition of aiding an enemy during warfare. I'll be curious to see the tortured logic for arguing how telling the American public about them being monitored helps the official enemies' war efforts. Maybe along the lines of "A-ha, we can mock them for their lack of freedom! The lack of morale will leave them crippled!"

Espionage would indeed hang on the conditional. Let's see how it goes.
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Old 22.06.2013, 17:40
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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'Treason', as a legal term, has a very specific definition of aiding an enemy during warfare.
Which is why they label those of us who relinquish/renounce our US citizenship as traitors. Don't know why everyone is getting in such a snit about it. We all knew/guessed they were doing it, so why the big show of outrage that someone has actually said so.
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Old 22.06.2013, 17:58
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Which is why they label those of us who relinquish/renounce our US citizenship as traitors.
They do? That's... sad.
Was a time obtaining US citizenship meant relinquishing your country of origin's. Wonder if they secretly thought the same then.

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Don't know why everyone is getting in such a snit about it. We all knew/guessed they were doing it, so why the big show of outrage that someone has actually said so.
We did? In my experience, friends/family/acquaintances mostly benignly tolerated speculation and tales of monitoring, the occasional tin foil hat witticism lightening the mood.

Some of the more conservative US folk must be living in dissonance land right now. They despise the government and demand it keep away from their business, and they have it in for Obama, but I'm sure they'll figure out a way to hate Snowden even more. It's the Cirque du Soleil of mental gymnastics, I'm ordering my tickets now.

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  #91  
Old 22.06.2013, 18:06
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

Love it!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23012317

The country doing the spying has accused him of ... spying! Wow, who would have seen that one coming.
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  #92  
Old 22.06.2013, 19:25
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Pardon him? Even if that were possible, why should he be? I tend to agree that he has damaged the NSA programmes he has released classified documents on.
Personally I'd be quite glad if he's "damaged" NSA programmes and significantly embarrassed them and the government? I'm not a citizen of the USA, never will be, and have absolutely nothing to do with them, but it would appear that they've been spying on me, and everybody else in the world who happens to a non citizen of the USA. Why only non USA citizens, well apparently it's against the law to spy on their own citizens.

The guy is a bit of a hero in my opinion. He pointed out to the world that the USA is screwing with you and stealing your private information. If anybody should be prosecuted for espionage then it's the entire USA government, and as far treason is concerned then I would consider the NSA's actions to be treason against the rest of the world.

There are of course other countries engaging in this kind of thing, GCHQ in the UK for example, and I look forward to an outrage and scandle involving them as well.

My stuff is my stuff - end of, it's not for any government to look at as they see fit.
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  #93  
Old 22.06.2013, 19:40
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

There has not been true privacy for decades. The only thing private is what you think but never speak or write - and who knows when they might be able to figure that out, too

But seriously, I am disgusted by the large-scale monitoring of the masses without warrant or reason.

I can only imagine those of us who are US citizens but living abroad are definitely on the ear-prick list, as many there consider just leaving the country to live a life elsewhere as being a traitor's act.
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  #94  
Old 22.06.2013, 23:06
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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There has not been true privacy for decades. The only thing private is what you think but never speak or write - and who knows when they might be able to figure that out, too
Actually, given the amount of video surveillance, particularly in places like the UK, it's not so farfetched that facial expressions and body language could be used to anticipate actions or even determine the content of a conversation 'off the grid' so to speak. Pretty much the only place left for privacy is your own bathroom unless, of course, you have small children or pets....
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Old 22.06.2013, 23:23
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Personally I'd be quite glad if he's "damaged" NSA programmes and significantly embarrassed them and the government? I'm not a citizen of the USA, never will be, and have absolutely nothing to do with them, but it would appear that they've been spying on me, and everybody else in the world who happens to a non citizen of the USA. Why only non USA citizens, well apparently it's against the law to spy on their own citizens.
I'm not a patriot and I've more than one citizenship, but I don't know that he will have achieved such damage or embarrassment to really make a dent. If it were only the US and only carefully chosen folks being spied upon it might also make it more sensational and more outrageous, but the real problem here is that many countries participate in these sorts of tactics, all of them made easier by radical extremists who don't need great numbers to do great harm.

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The guy is a bit of a hero in my opinion. He pointed out to the world that the USA is screwing with you and stealing your private information. If anybody should be prosecuted for espionage then it's the entire USA government, and as far treason is concerned then I would consider the NSA's actions to be treason against the rest of the world.
Hero is a bit strong methinks....he is an idealist, certainly, and if only he had some really specific information that would make it harder for the gub'mint to portray him as a traitor it might be more apparent what his motives are.

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There are of course other countries engaging in this kind of thing, GCHQ in the UK for example, and I look forward to an outrage and scandle involving them as well.

My stuff is my stuff - end of, it's not for any government to look at as they see fit.
Well, but your 'stuff' travells over a number of networks, systems and countries that aren't yours. We all turn a blind eye to this because it's not really practical to consider ownership of digital bits when they leave our computers, but it's not as simple as ownership in the physical world.

And GCHQ probably doesn't have anything to worry about, especially given Menwith Hill and all the video surveillance in the UK. Just another day on the job, really.
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Old 23.06.2013, 00:06
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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He already said that wasn't his motivation. He said that if he wanted, he could have pulled up a list of CIA stations around the world, and a listing of undercover CIA agents and passed them onto the Chinese or Russians. But he didn't. All he has done is expose how pervasive government intrusion is, and how some very large corporations willingly (or unwillingly) are colluding with them.
I didn't see that bit in the article, but I'll take your word for it. If he really did say that, this surely calls into question his veracity. There is no way on Earth that a list of undercover CIA agents and CIA cells exists on some central computer somewhere (helpfully labelled "names and addresses of our undercover agents"), and accessible to an outsourced contractor. It's totally inconceivable.
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Old 23.06.2013, 00:15
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Your choice of terms speaks volumes.
'Treason', as a legal term, has a very specific definition of aiding an enemy during warfare. I'll be curious to see the tortured logic for arguing how telling the American public about them being monitored helps the official enemies' war efforts. Maybe along the lines of "A-ha, we can mock them for their lack of freedom! The lack of morale will leave them crippled!"
"The American public" includes people like the Tsarnaev brothers, who bombed the Boston Marathon in the name of militant Islam.

This is not "tortured logic", but a simple fact.

Your own choice of terms also "speaks volumes" -- as no doubt do mine. That's what we do when trying to argue a point.
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Old 23.06.2013, 00:46
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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"The American public" includes people like the Tsarnaev brothers, who bombed the Boston Marathon in the name of militant Islam.

This is not "tortured logic", but a simple fact.

Your own choice of terms also "speaks volumes" -- as no doubt do mine. That's what we do when trying to argue a point.
Yeah, they did a really good job of stopping them, didn't they?
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Old 23.06.2013, 00:58
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Personally I'd be quite glad if he's "damaged" NSA programmes and significantly embarrassed them and the government? I'm not a citizen of the USA, never will be, and have absolutely nothing to do with them, but it would appear that they've been spying on me, and everybody else in the world who happens to a non citizen of the USA. Why only non USA citizens, well apparently it's against the law to spy on their own citizens.

The guy is a bit of a hero in my opinion. He pointed out to the world that the USA is screwing with you and stealing your private information. If anybody should be prosecuted for espionage then it's the entire USA government, and as far treason is concerned then I would consider the NSA's actions to be treason against the rest of the world.

There are of course other countries engaging in this kind of thing, GCHQ in the UK for example, and I look forward to an outrage and scandle involving them as well.

My stuff is my stuff - end of, it's not for any government to look at as they see fit.
I don't get this. He "pointed out to the world" that US intelligence is monitoring aggregated telephone and email data? And that they have the right to request telephone companies and ISPs to release data on persons of interest?

Seriously, is this a surprise to you? This has been going on for decades. Email can be screened on a mass scale for keywords or names of interest. If they crop up, they can be checked further. It's ancient news.

There is no mass reading of emails for heaven's sake. How many billions of emails are transmitted every day? Do you really think there are people out there, reading through your personal correspondence?

You say that "My stuff is my stuff - end of, it's not for any government to look at as they see fit."

Well suppose you were corresponding with a known group of active terrorists and planning to blow up a passenger plane? I would say that you it WOULD be for the government to take an interest. Not only that, I am very glad the government would take an interest. It might be my family's plane you're targetting.

Everyone is consumed by this idea that it's their "personal data" that is being picked over and discussed by a bunch of NSA operatives. It's not. It's messages between people seen to be a serious threat to our security.

We should try to leave our youthful idealism out of this. There are misguided people out there who would be happy to kill us in the name of some bizarre medieval creed. If intelligence agencies are actively keeping an eye on them and their activities, I am relieved.

By revealing some of these screening techniques to our enemies, Snowden acted selfishly. He has made my life, and the lives of all of us, less safe.
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Old 23.06.2013, 01:06
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Re: NSA collecting records of all US phone calls

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Yeah, they did a really good job of stopping them, didn't they?
Ridiculous statement. Digital screening is hardly going to succeed with 2 individuals living in the same house who plan to commit a local atrocity with homemade materials. Same with the 2 guys in London who murdered the soldier in the street recently. No one has suggested that these intelligence activities are guaranteed to prevent every act of urban terror. They can only hope to pick up some of them, particularly those arranged across continents involving several people -- but many others will succeed.
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